New Machinima Animation Design Video: Devastator

And Devastator happens to be the only character in this show who's voiced by a relatively known voice actor (Patrick Seitz) instead of a YouTube person or an unknown.

So hyped for this! Can't wait!

I'm sure that Hasbro is purposely limiting the budget and trying to make this show bomb so we don't ask for anything like it again.


Probably not but that's what I would do if I was making a show for a non stop complaining fandom.

Sabrblade wrote:And Devastator happens to be the only character in this show who's voiced by a relatively known voice actor (Patrick Seitz) instead of a YouTube person or an unknown.

Um, ouch?

Delicon wrote:Here's my thoughts.

First, the animation is great. It looks modern but has the G1 feel at the same time.

The length is a major bummer. This whole series we've been waiting for is as long as 2 standard episodes? Why were they not upfront about it? It's not even the length of a TV movie or miniseries.

As far as the voices go, we honestly didn't hear many but let me tackle the Optimus Prime voice. They really dropped the ball here. It seems obvious they didn't want to pay Peter Cullen. Anyone who has heard Jon Bailey's Optimus voice knows that it is the next best thing and actually sounds more like G1 Prime than Cullen himself has in recent years. The problem is that this isn't Bailey's Prime voice, it's a very generic sounding voice that really misses the mark. I would hope that we'll get more G1 based animation in the future and a real series and hopefully Jon can return as Optimus and do the voice the way he has before.

I did the job I was given to do and I wished there was more that I could say however I will say that there is truth in some of your comment.

Randomhero wrote:It's pretty cool John Bailey is doing the voice of Optimus Prime officially. First watch I didn't catch him doing Optimus, only the narration and it made me go "seriously? You're having John Bailey narrate but not him as Optimus?" But second watch, yeah that John. Awesome

Thanks so much!

Sabrblade wrote:So, on the voice acting side, it's mostly YouTube people, minor actors, and Patrick Seitz.

Oh, my mistake. I thought I was on Seibertron not TFW for a sec there. Gotta say that's a pretty insulting statement, bro. I've been a professional voice actor for 7 years and worked on over 3,000 jobs. I've done character work for cartoons on FOX, a dozen or so video game characters, toys, commercials and everything in between. I get that you're in love with Seitz but don't insult the professionalism of the rest of the cast. New media stars are getting hired more and more often than tv and movie stars are for animation, that's just the way the industry is evolving. It's free publicity for the jobs they do for the clients. They bring their fans with them. That being said, I'm not the only one with acting chops and plenty of experience to work in animation.

So for those who don't know, I'm going to be the voice of Optimus Prime in Transformers: Combiner Wars. It's been painful, to be honest, wading through all of the hate and negativity even here where I always felt was a safe place from haters. I've been imitating Optimus since I was 5 years old. 32 years of practice. I can't say that I've unofficially filled in for a certain voice before and no one ever even noticed. The voice of Optimus was what inspired me to pursue this career along with my wife's motivation and it's always been a lifelong dream to work on something official for this brand. It finally happened for me. The reactions are divided because let's face it, TF fans hate change and only ever want the original cast on the other hand I've had plenty of supportive friends that are happy for me. I have the experience and chops to back this up, people. I've been doing voiceover work since 2009 professionally in over 3,000 jobs. I've voices over a dozen video game characters in XCOM, Dishonored 2, etc., the voices for toys, commercials, trailers, documentaries, a reality series this October, network promos for ABC & NBC, filled in for some of the biggest Hollywood actors, cartoon characters on FOX ADHD and much more. Some of the other cast members have also done legitimate professional voice acting and/or on-camera work. It's an insult to them to say we're second-hand or unprofessional. You all have done jobs that others have done before you, yes? Just because you're doing the job now doesn't mean you're as good as your predecessor or maybe you're better but I bet if someone used a term to categorize you as inferior compared to the previous employee, it would offend you. Different doesn't always have to be "bad" and there's a lot on the production side of animation that only those who work in the industry would know about and understand.

jON3.0 wrote:So for those who don't know, I'm going to be the voice of Optimus Prime in Transformers: Combiner Wars. It's been painful, to be honest, wading through all of the hate and negativity even here where I always felt was a safe place from haters. I've been imitating Optimus since I was 5 years old. 32 years of practice. I can't say that I've unofficially filled in for a certain voice before and no one ever even noticed. The voice of Optimus was what inspired me to pursue this career along with my wife's motivation and it's always been a lifelong dream to work on something official for this brand. It finally happened for me. The reactions are divided because let's face it, TF fans hate change and only ever want the original cast on the other hand I've had plenty of supportive friends that are happy for me. I have the experience and chops to back this up, people. I've been doing voiceover work since 2009 professionally in over 3,000 jobs. I've voices over a dozen video game characters in XCOM, Dishonored 2, etc., the voices for toys, commercials, trailers, documentaries, a reality series this October, network promos for ABC & NBC, filled in for some of the biggest Hollywood actors, cartoon characters on FOX ADHD and much more. Some of the other cast members have also done legitimate professional voice acting and/or on-camera work. It's an insult to them to say we're second-hand or unprofessional. You all have done jobs that others have done before you, yes? Just because you're doing the job now doesn't mean you're as good as your predecessor or maybe you're better but I bet if someone used a term to categorize you as inferior compared to the previous employee, it would offend you. Different doesn't always have to be "bad" and there's a lot on the production side of animation that only those who work in the industry would know about and understand.

Keep up the good work Jon all sounds good thus far from me

I'm also paid a voice actor but with only a few credits.

Are you able to PM me in the right direction to get an audition for the next Machinma TF project?

Thank Again
Andy

You're doing a great job Jon! We don't see an official TF voice actor this active on Seibertron every day! I'm glad that Machinima got you to do your Prime impression in this attempt to please the online fandom, who have probably known your TF Parody/Botcon work and EPIC Voice from Youtube.

It's hard to believe how long and prevalent "Ruined Forever" has been in the TF Community. I'd explain more but TFWiki (http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Ruined_FOREVER) does a great job of doing it for me already. That being said, this new series shouldn't receive hate just because it is done on a smaller-scale than other previous Transformers projects. Some may find it insignificant to their expectations, but others certainly will find satisfaction seeing their newest figures come to life on their screens, complete with modern animation techniques and a talented voice cast! It might even introduce new fans to the fray to replace those who cease to be fans, which the Transformers franchise needs more than anything in order to protect its "fragility". Many fans would say that the Energon cartoon RUINED transformers FOREVER due to its awkward 3D and rushed dubbing, but without it, I wouldn't have even known these forums existed! If that series is able to even able to attract some attention to the franchise, surely this series could do it, without a doubt!

Bottom line, this series has not even been released yet, and we can't really judge its cons as of now, despite some implications. All we know that it has been specifically targeted at older fans, not towards the the massive movie crowd or the kids who are getting their first feel of the franchise. As an added bonus, it incorporates several plot elements from the stellar comic series. Even if expectations are not met for some fans, it's not a full-blown 50 -episode series, and it will do a great service to me!

jON3.0 wrote:

Sabrblade wrote:And Devastator happens to be the only character in this show who's voiced by a relatively known voice actor (Patrick Seitz) instead of a YouTube person or an unknown.

Um, ouch?

D'oh, sorry Jon. Had a brainfart and forgot you were in this too.

Deadput wrote:I'm sure that Hasbro is purposely limiting the budget and trying to make this show bomb so we don't ask for anything like it again.


Probably not but that's what I would do if I was making a show for a non stop complaining fandom.

Of course half of fans complain about movie series look at robots body when human body moves that explains moving parts can't drive car without having tires move same thing with alien robot machines and human body muscles take skin off human you can see muscles move and bones.,

And for this series not everyone have Netflix I don't want need Netflix I don't stream you need wifi to stream bad weather bad wifi this series will be bad if you can't download to computer

dragons wrote:And for this series not everyone have Netflix I don't want need Netflix I don't stream you need wifi to stream bad weather bad wifi this series will be bad if you can't download to computer

It's not a Netflix series.

Sabrblade wrote:

dragons wrote:And for this series not everyone have Netflix I don't want need Netflix I don't stream you need wifi to stream bad weather bad wifi this series will be bad if you can't download to computer

It's not a Netflix series.

It is unfortunately MUCH more obscure than that. Prior to this I've never even heard of go90. I hope it is something where I can just go and watch the episodes without having to register or pay any money. For as much as I dislike CN recently, I think CW would have been very well received during adult swim. Also I know physical media is *dying* , and at SDCC they said they have no plans for a DVD/BRD release, but I hope this changes at some point. I bet it would look beautiful on a larger screen than just a monitor, tablet, or phone.

dragons wrote:

Deadput wrote:I'm sure that Hasbro is purposely limiting the budget and trying to make this show bomb so we don't ask for anything like it again.


Probably not but that's what I would do if I was making a show for a non stop complaining fandom.

Of course half of fans complain about movie series look at robots body when human body moves that explains moving parts can't drive car without having tires move same thing with alien robot machines and human body muscles take skin off human you can see muscles move and bones.,

And for this series not everyone have Netflix I don't want need Netflix I don't stream you need wifi to stream bad weather bad wifi this series will be bad if you can't download to computer

I... have no clue how what any of what you said related to the post you were replying to .-.

Hey guys, at least we can all agree that the voices are pretty solid right?

I am glad the Epic Voice guy can finally be Optimus again.

I commented earlier I am split thus far. All the Autobots (Optimus, Victorion, WindBlade) sound good. Megatron is off to me, though if I hear more of him I might get used to it. Starscream I just can't get. Especially all the people saying he sounds like Chris Latta. To me he sounds nothing like Chris Latta, not that he needs to. I listed previously several other VA's with good sounding Starscreams.

I think this series is going to be overall divisive on several levels. Many will like it, not for all the same reasons however, many will hate it, also for a variety of reasons. I have been excited about this from the beginning. And though my excitement has been tempered a bit by the previews, I am still firmly in the *excited for, and cant wait to see this* camp.

Bronzewolf wrote:The video, embedded below, confirms Devastator will have a part in the show, and his design seems to be based off of the Combiner Wars iteration. Check it out!






What do you think of Devvy's new design? Yay or nay? Tell us below! And, as always, keep your optics and audio sensors tuned to Seibertron.com!

There is literally nothing embedded there. No code for it, either.

Code: Select all

The video, embedded below, confirms Devastator will have a part in the show, and his design seems to be based off of the [url=http://www.seibertron.com/transformers-toys/gallery/comic-con-exclusives/devastator/3741/1/]Combiner Wars[/url] iteration. Check it out!






What do you think of Devvy's new design?

Devy's design is nice, about what I expected. I see they have models for Scavenger and Long Haul, I hope they get some decent screentime, though at 5 minutes per episode I guess I shouldn't hold my breath.

That Bot wrote:

Bronzewolf wrote:The video, embedded below, confirms Devastator will have a part in the show, and his design seems to be based off of the Combiner Wars iteration. Check it out!






What do you think of Devvy's new design? Yay or nay? Tell us below! And, as always, keep your optics and audio sensors tuned to Seibertron.com!

There is literally nothing embedded there. No code for it, either.

Code: Select all

The video, embedded below, confirms Devastator will have a part in the show, and his design seems to be based off of the [url=http://www.seibertron.com/transformers-toys/gallery/comic-con-exclusives/devastator/3741/1/]Combiner Wars[/url] iteration. Check it out!






What do you think of Devvy's new design?

Devy's design is nice, about what I expected. I see they have models for Scavenger and Long Haul, I hope they get some decent screentime, though at 5 minutes per episode I guess I shouldn't hold my breath.

There is for the news story, though not for the post. Please be kind to new news staff recruits as we iron out wrinkles.

Dr Va'al wrote:Please be kind to new news staff recruits as we iron out wrinkles.

Maybe if the older news crew members did their jobs right you wouldn't have wrinkles at such a young age.

Burn wrote:

Dr Va'al wrote:Please be kind to new news staff recruits as we iron out wrinkles.

Maybe if the older news crew members did their jobs right you wouldn't have wrinkles at such a young age.

#Burned

william-james88 wrote:Hey guys, at least we can all agree that the voices are pretty solid right?

I am glad the Epic Voice guy can finally be Optimus again.

Again? When was I him before? Lol

jON3.0 wrote:

william-james88 wrote:Hey guys, at least we can all agree that the voices are pretty solid right?

I am glad the Epic Voice guy can finally be Optimus again.

Again? When was I him before? Lol

In this video.

Sabrblade wrote:

jON3.0 wrote:

william-james88 wrote:Hey guys, at least we can all agree that the voices are pretty solid right?

I am glad the Epic Voice guy can finally be Optimus again.

Again? When was I him before? Lol

In this video.

Along with all the prime reviews and that time you voiced a t-rex that has the voice of optimus prime

Sabrblade wrote:And Devastator happens to be the only character in this show who's voiced by a relatively known voice actor (Patrick Seitz) instead of a YouTube person or an unknown.

Bit harsh.
Apart from the fact not everyone on that list is unknown outside that list, Unknowns often step up to the mark because they have more to prove.
It's seems ok for us to sit around criticizing these decisions, based on no facts because the actors are unknown, while they evidently put a lot of work into it, whether the end result is something fans like or not.
With a lot of the voice talent that we grew up with in the 80s sadly passing on now, it's a good thing that other talent is coming through.
It's nice to people working on the project who genuinely love the source material. Nice one jON3.0

Devastator is looking real good. Looking like his Combiner wars version rather than his G1 version which is no surprise given the cartoons title.

Kurona wrote:By the by, took another look at the prelude.



Since Menasor's legs are both the same car mold with the hood folded in front like a kneecap, seems he has Wildrider as a leg instead of Offroad.

Perhaps the show will show us the "breakup" and need for his replacement. We know why Alpha Bravo and Powerglide are the new Aerialbots.
It's certainly part of the tale that I would be interested in knowing about.
Maybe Wildrider quit.
Maybe he dies or switches sides or becomes a recluse, drunk because he lost faith after 4 million years of PTSD and Megatons betrayal and the wholesale price of it all.
Maybe he takes Prowls place in Optimus Maximus, teaching the Autobots how to Gestalt properly.

I don't know.

If utilized well, could make for some good bit of writing.

There is a lot of potential here, but things are so limited by time...I don't know how they are going to fit it all in.

First you have to establish what is going on in the current world (some odd melding of the original Transformers, and IDW) and what the current conflict is.

What does it really mean to be a combiner? There have been conflicting theories over the years as to whether a combiner, when merged has its own consciousness, or if it is the fusion of the minds of its members. Devastator is unique in that he has only one transformation mode (which makes it fitting that in most cases he was the *first* combiner). Most other "Scramble City" combiners have the ability to switch out limbs within their teams, and with other teams, though in north America this was never really seen. In Japan, it was made use of more often. I also like the idea that if an Autobot or Decepticon limb could infiltrate another combiner it could actually cause them pain and disable them temporarily (as seen in Scramble City). Another aspect is the idea that warriors like Cyclonus, or even Optimus Prime with the enigma of combination could literally summon any transformer to merge with them. Though this is an aspect of the CW toy brand, again we have no way of knowing at the moment if this will play into the series or not.

Also I'm still wondering how they will be portrayed. The one video at SDCC showed Menasor speaking. Of course I want a little something more than "SMASH! DESTROY!" , but was it just me...or did Menasor sound a little *urban*? for lack of a better term.

If we look back to Menasors dialogue from the OTF episode Masquerade I think that was a nice balance. Not a completely out of control rage monster, but still quite formidable and obviously limited because of the melding of 5 minds. I also like the idea that a combiner could have more than 5 or 6 members. First Aid was a medic and pacifist, so it would make sense that they would get a new member (Rook) to take his place in most situations. Or if a member happened to die, or be mortally wounded in battle, they could get another to take his place. Though it should not be something flippant (as seen in the IDW comics recently where Sky Reign and Galvatronus literally were hodgepodged together out of whoever happened to be there).

There should be some kind of compatibility factor scale. Kind of like what was seen in Pacific Rim. Different Transformer minds should have a certain level of compatibility in order to merge IMHO.

jON3.0 wrote:

Sabrblade wrote:So, on the voice acting side, it's mostly YouTube people, minor actors, and Patrick Seitz.

Oh, my mistake. I thought I was on Seibertron not TFW for a sec there. Gotta say that's a pretty insulting statement, bro. I've been a professional voice actor for 7 years and worked on over 3,000 jobs. I've done character work for cartoons on FOX, a dozen or so video game characters, toys, commercials and everything in between. I get that you're in love with Seitz but don't insult the professionalism of the rest of the cast. New media stars are getting hired more and more often than tv and movie stars are for animation, that's just the way the industry is evolving. It's free publicity for the jobs they do for the clients. They bring their fans with them. That being said, I'm not the only one with acting chops and plenty of experience to work in animation.

I think your voice work is great Jon really enjoy your stuff here and on Xcom which is the only game I have been playing recently!


What I said about Budget was just me being angry about people complaining about this show.

Deadput wrote:

jON3.0 wrote:

Sabrblade wrote:So, on the voice acting side, it's mostly YouTube people, minor actors, and Patrick Seitz.

Oh, my mistake. I thought I was on Seibertron not TFW for a sec there.

Dont let these people get to you Jon, you know your awesome!

Everybory is waiting for the series about Transformers Combiners Wars. I would like to know, what are you waiting for about this new production.

I think it is going to be amazing!!!...


Video here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=62poUMLEVXA

I like how it's been pegged as being a more mature series compared to what we have in the past supposedly. I mean I do find the RiD 2015 to be good fun and Prime is also mature in some ways itself at least for a kids show. I appreciate the slapstick elements of RiD 2015. Humor is part of the brand in my eyes. I just would love to see the CW series on Machima to definitely set the bar higher though for TF fiction.

New clip shown at Cybertron Con featuring the Constructicons vs. Megatron - http://js.t.sinajs.cn/t5/album/static/swf/video/player.swf?_v0255b71b4491d5f3&file=http%3A%2F%2Fus.sinaimg.cn%2F003eiMSijx073G1N2I3C0104010000200k01.m3u8%3FKID%3Dunistore%2Cvideo%26Expires%3D1470017698%26ssig%3DEIC14rSi1y&fid=1034:2b89d5176fb63be7cace43cde0bd9f33

Sabrblade wrote:New clip shown at Cybertron Con featuring the Constructicons vs. Megatron - http://js.t.sinajs.cn/t5/album/static/swf/video/player.swf?_v0255b71b4491d5f3&file=http%3A%2F%2Fus.sinaimg.cn%2F003eiMSijx073G1N2I3C0104010000200k01.m3u8%3FKID%3Dunistore%2Cvideo%26Expires%3D1470017698%26ssig%3DEIC14rSi1y&fid=1034:2b89d5176fb63be7cace43cde0bd9f33

Amusing. I'm looking forward to this. I mean the voice acting I am kind of on the fence about, but I am looking forward to this.

The video isn't playing for me. A Chinese message shows that says, according to Google Translate, "This video does not exist!"

Our by-now old friend 52Toys from the Weibo social network has uploaded a video from Cybertron Con 2016, which features a clip from the upcoming Combiner Wars animated series from Machinima and Hasbro! The clip, shown during the event, shows a fight between Megatron and the Contructicons, in an arena looking location. Check it out embedded below!

Video link doesn't work. Just a small icon of some blue cube?

YouTube link, please!

https://youtu.be/gpG0O1TC_XE


Best I could find

Randomhero wrote:https://youtu.be/gpG0O1TC_XE


Best I could find

Brilliant! Cheers!

Although the uploader wrote "combaticons" instead of "constructicons" by mistake.

primalxconvoy wrote:

Randomhero wrote:https://youtu.be/gpG0O1TC_XE


Best I could find

Brilliant! Cheers!

Although the uploader wrote "combaticons" instead of "constructicons" by mistake.

That's a actually a thing for some reason. A lot of stuff is promoting them as combaticons for some reason

Maybe - and I'm just letting the speculengine loose here - they're combaticons in the sense that they're part of that combat arena looking thing?

Man, that is some choppy movement on the bots (despite all the background and camera movement looking just fine).

Sabrblade wrote:Man, that is some choppy movement on the bots (despite all the background and camera movement looking just fine).

Yeah, I am not a fan. I really dont like that style of action where you dont see the origin of the blows and instead just see the bot flying off after being hit.

Looks pretty good, I admit its not as fluid as I would hope, but still good. Can't wait to watch these. What I wish Hasbro would do, would be a show that is set during the 20 yrs between G1 Sunbow season 2 and the movie. Same style animation, just updated similar to Devastation. So much to cover there like Kup, Hot Rod and the bunch reuniting with the Ark gang, Metroplex/Autobot city, Decepticons taking Cybertron and Unicron build up. But maybe thats just me.

Moonshot wrote:Looks pretty good, I admit its not as fluid as I would hope, but still good. Can't wait to watch these. What I wish Hasbro would do, would be a show that is set during the 20 yrs between G1 Sunbow season 2 and the movie. Same style animation, just updated similar to Devastation. So much to cover there like Kup, Hot Rod and the bunch reuniting with the Ark gang, Metroplex/Autobot city, Decepticons taking Cybertron and Unicron build up. But maybe thats just me.

I wouldn't mind this either. I'd be mostly and completely alright and on board with this idea. I doubt it will happen though unfortunately, but you never know.

If I'm honest, I'm very meh on the idea and I would like to see them continue to tell new stories that aren't constricted by G1. Give me an animated series set in the idw time line or a new time line altogether. The original G1 had its time in the sun, let it enjoy retirement.

ZeroWolf wrote:If I'm honest, I'm very meh on the idea and I would like to see them continue to tell new stories that aren't constricted by G1. Give me an animated series set in the idw time line or a new time line altogether. The original G1 had its time in the sun, let it enjoy retirement.

Yes, it had it's time in the sun, and then it bowed down

ZeroWolf wrote:If I'm honest, I'm very meh on the idea and I would like to see them continue to tell new stories that aren't constricted by G1. Give me an animated series set in the idw time line or a new time line altogether. The original G1 had its time in the sun, let it enjoy retirement.

Not to mention that every time Hasbro kept getting asked at each BotCon about either a continuation, a season 2.5, or a remake of the G1 cartoon, they always sounded less than ethusiastic about the idea, and accompanied their responses with the usual "We prefer to move forward with the brand and look to the past for mere inspiration and influence for new ideas, rather than stay stuck in the past" shtick.

I think it just goes to show how fickle (or diverse) the fanbase is, or how confusing Hasbro seems to be. See for me, really I haven't been collecting toys for about a decade (with few exceptions). I am mostly in it for the animated series and comics, which is a constant source of frustration.

I would love to see a truly, honest to goodness continuation of the original animated series. Either taking pace in the time period between season 2 and the movie, or something Post-Rebirth. Hasbro keeps saying "no" because basically there is no money (or far less money) to be made in animated series and comics. Toys is where they make their money (well and now the movie franchise but...)

So they sought to appeal to fans, and in a way it succeeded. Between Combiner Wars and Titans Return, a fan can *almost* relive the experience of getting the entire 86 & 87 toy line, plus a good amount of new stuff. but again those are just TOYS. I want to see a absolutely true continuation of the original animated series, but I know its never going to happen.

Plus, honestly... a continuation of the original G1 series wouldn't work because it didn't really have a particular story behind it. It was just fun, silly situation-of-the-week episodes that had no real connection, was pretty mindless, and never went anywhere. Which is fun, but there's not really any story to continue there.
Now if you're talking about something like Marvel G1, Beast Wars, Animated etc. who do have stories and characters that went places and it would be great to see a continuation of - especially given the latter's cancellation - then that makes sense. But beyond the pure basic thinking birthed from nostalgia of "OMG MY CHILDHOOD SHOW'S BACK", what could you really do with the G1 cartoon?
It's why I was initially scared at the rumours of Combiner Wars being a G1 continuation because it's (trying to be) a serious story which doesn't really fit in at all with G1.

william-james88 wrote:

ZeroWolf wrote:If I'm honest, I'm very meh on the idea and I would like to see them continue to tell new stories that aren't constricted by G1. Give me an animated series set in the idw time line or a new time line altogether. The original G1 had its time in the sun, let it enjoy retirement.

Yes, it had it's time in the sun, and then it bowed down

Ah. Hah. See what you did there. Clever!

Sabrblade wrote:

ZeroWolf wrote:If I'm honest, I'm very meh on the idea and I would like to see them continue to tell new stories that aren't constricted by G1. Give me an animated series set in the idw time line or a new time line altogether. The original G1 had its time in the sun, let it enjoy retirement.

Not to mention that every time Hasbro kept getting asked at each BotCon about either a continuation, a season 2.5, or a remake of the G1 cartoon, they always sounded less than ethusiastic about the idea, and accompanied their responses with the usual "We prefer to move forward with the brand and look to the past for mere inspiration and influence for new ideas, rather than stay stuck in the past" shtick.

I recall this as well from reading it somewhere actually. It was either on a news group's archive I went through, TFWiki, or BWTF that lead to it. Can't really remember exactly.