Transformers: Age of Extinction - Peter Cullen Talks About Optimus Prime

Optimus seems to have lost hope in humanity… I think he's changed.

always feel a bit sorry for peter as try as he might with whatever script he's given by the writers - bay clearly doesnt see prime the same way he does.in fact im having a hard time believing bay knows what a real hero is period.

maybe ill be surprised by the new film but i cant help thinking itll take a new director before we get to see the prime of the comics and season 1 on the big screen.

i hope cullens still about and gets the chance to deliver a honest to goodness inspiring prime speach on the big screen at some stage in the future. but so far nothing bays done can even match his animated death scene from the 80s. which is unforgivable considering the money thrown at the live action films writers.

partholon wrote:always feel a bit sorry for peter as try as he might with whatever script he's given by the writers - bay clearly doesnt see prime the same way he does.in fact im having a hard time believing bay knows what a real hero is period.

maybe ill be surprised by the new film but i cant help thinking itll take a new director before we get to see the prime of the comics and season 1 on the big screen.

i hope cullens still about and gets the chance to deliver a honest to goodness inspiring prime speach on the big screen at some stage in the future. but so far nothing bays done can even match his animated death scene from the 80s. which is unforgivable considering the money thrown at the live action films writers.

Honestly, after some thought, I would blame the writers more than I would blame Bay. Since TF4 has new writers, I feel a little more optimistic. I still expect it to be an explosion fest with little character development (I blame Bay for THAT), but at least there won't me any more d*ck and fart jokes like in RotF.

partholon wrote:always feel a bit sorry for peter as try as he might with whatever script he's given by the writers - bay clearly doesnt see prime the same way he does.in fact im having a hard time believing bay knows what a real hero is period.

maybe ill be surprised by the new film but i cant help thinking itll take a new director before we get to see the prime of the comics and season 1 on the big screen.

i hope cullens still about and gets the chance to deliver a honest to goodness inspiring prime speach on the big screen at some stage in the future. but so far nothing bays done can even match his animated death scene from the 80s. which is unforgivable considering the money thrown at the live action films writers.

Prove it.

end of the day its bays film.

he calls the shots on the final form of the script. i tend to give ROTF a pass cause thanks to the writers strike it was basically all bay anyway and it was his idea to go with the twins the way they did.

in fairness to the guy he did seem to take notice of the flak they got on the dick and fart jokes ans while still to bloody long dark of the moon was a good step up from that.

i dont wish to sound too negative, i enjoy the films for what they are and bay is undeniably a fantastic action movie director. the flow of the films is very exciting visually . but theres NO character in em for the bots n cons. its all image.

they really should be on a par with stuff like the avengers on that front. where you get the feel of a genuine ensemble cast with their own back stories and motivations. as opposed to prime and what ever random collection of bodies named after characters we all know but they look and act feck all like.

TBH at this stage i reckon the only way well get that is in direct to video flims with marvel or something . prehaps adapting the classic stories ala what DC has been doing with its characters. cause right now i reckon the studios see TF live action films as a cash cow that theyll keep as close to what weve seen so far as they can as it nets em a billion a go.

SlyTF1 wrote:
Prove it.

simple.

revenge of the fallen. when opitimus prime tracked down and executed a defeated opponent by shooting him in the head.

to paraphrase a quote from the franchise "thats not prime".

bay had the autobots acting like a death squad FFS. thats how megatron does things.

and thats before you get to the whole "face ripping " stuff later on.

partholon wrote:end of the day its bays film.

he calls the shots on the final form of the script. i tend to give ROTF a pass cause thanks to the writers strike it was basically all bay anyway and it was his idea to go with the twins the way they did.

in fairness to the guy he did seem to take notice of the flak they got on the dick and fart jokes ans while still to bloody long dark of the moon was a good step up from that.

i dont wish to sound too negative, i enjoy the films for what they are and bay is undeniably a fantastic action movie director. the flow of the films is very exciting visually . but theres NO character in em for the bots n cons. its all image.

they really should be on a par with stuff like the avengers on that front. where you get the feel of a genuine ensemble cast with their own back stories and motivations. as opposed to prime and what ever random collection of bodies named after characters we all know but they look and act feck all like.

TBH at this stage i reckon the only way well get that is in direct to video flims with marvel or something . prehaps adapting the classic stories ala what DC has been doing with its characters. cause right now i reckon the studios see TF live action films as a cash cow that theyll keep as close to what weve seen so far as they can as it nets em a billion a go.

Maybe if you actually look past just the images that show up on the screen, youll find the characters.

partholon wrote:

SlyTF1 wrote:
Prove it.

simple.

revenge of the fallen. when opitimus prime tracked down and executed a defeated opponent by shooting him in the head.

to paraphrase a quote from the franchise "thats not prime".

bay had the autobots acting like a death squad FFS. thats how megatron does things.

and thats before you get to the whole "face ripping " stuff later on.

So what? You expected him to let Demolisher continue to terrorize the planet? Maybe you missed the part in the animated movie when Optimus swept through Autobot City, murdered all those Decepticons, then proceeded to beat Megatron, and attempt to execute him on the spot. Again, you expect Optimus to let Decepticons run rampant on Earth? No. He's supposed to exterminate them before they become an even bigger problem.

he's the leader of an army.

the MORAL leader of an army. ya mightve noticed he DIDNT execute megs in the animated film cause thats not what a hero does to a hepless opponent. hence why his had was forced by hot rods intervention.

demolisher was defeated. all they had to do was pack him up and lock him away on their island base. and seeing as he had Intel on the fallen THAT would actualy make sense.

but no its punisher prime with a bullet to the head cause bay thinks thats cool.

and it is, its a bad ass moment, but its not optimus prime

bay has yet to portray prime the way cullen describes him. in fact he's yet to portray him in a way that wouldnt mark him a war criminal if he was a human doing the same stuff to human opponents.

and on the characters front.

you REALLY think he's captured ratchets character? name ONE bot he treats as a doctor over the entire trilogy? he doesnt even lift a finger to examine primes corpse in the second film.

if you changed the names of the entire supporting cast of bots the story would still make the exact amount of sense that it does now.

if you dubed the name "twinblade" for instance over every appearnce of sidesipe in the franchise it wouldnt change a thing about the character. in fact you could happily walk away convinced it was an entirely new character.

ironhides meant to be primes best friend and he dies entirely unremarked by him in the third film. that couldve been good emotional ammo for primes fight with sentinel but nothing was done with it.

the character arcs in these films are soley about the humans. not the transformers.

partholon wrote:he's the leader of an army.

the MORAL leader of an army. ya mightve noticed he DIDNT execute megs in the animated film cause thats not what a hero does to a hepless opponent. hence why his had was forced by hot rods intervention.

demolisher was defeated. all they had to do was pack him up and lock him away on their island base. and seeing as he had Intel on the fallen THAT would actualy make sense.

but no its punisher prime with a bullet to the head cause bay thinks thats cool.

and it is, its a bad ass moment, but its not optimus prime

bay has yet to portray prime the way cullen describes him. in fact he's yet to portray him in a way that wouldnt mark him a war criminal if he was a human doing the same stuff to human opponents.

and on the characters front.

you REALLY think he's captured ratchets character? name ONE bot he treats as a doctor over the entire trilogy? he doesnt even lift a finger to examine primes corpse in the second film.

if you changed the names of the entire supporting cast of bots the story would still make the exact amount of sense that it does now.

ironhides meant to be primes best friend and he dies entirely unremarked by him in the third film. that couldve been good emotional ammo for primes fight with sentinel but nothing was done with it.

the character arcs in these films are soley about the humans. not the transformers.

He didn't kill Megatron, because Hot Rod got in the way.

So, in exchange for putting Demolisher down in probably one of the most humane ways to terminate an enemy in war, it would have been just fine to harbor a prisoner of war for no reason? And if he ever got lose? Imagine the damage he would cause at the base. He'd likely even call in reinforcements and give away the Autobot's base of operations. And how is shooting someone in the head a war crime? Keeping an enemy as a POW like that is a war crime. They'd probably just leave him in a cage to starve to death.

In terms of Ironhide being Optimus's best friend, why do you think Optimus was so pissed off at Sentinel? Optimus has never been the kind of person to show his emotions so blatantly. When he blew Sentinel's face off, that was payback for Ironhide.

ya mean like over the previous two years when demolishor was free to do just that but cringed in hiding from an autobot death squad instead like the rest of his kind ?

its not the autobots job to exterminate the decepticons, that'd make em just like them. its their job to stop them. prime in these films has been acting just like grimlock would if HE was running the autobots.

hot rod "got in the way" cause he was written that way as character device- cause flint dille and ron fridman knew they couldnt have prime execute a defenceless megatron without killing everything that makes him a heroic character.

but a guy using an autobot as sheild weilding a hidden weapon he was inching toward while lying his ass off. THAT guy you can kill.

bays prime in dark of the moon knew nothing of what happned to ironhide and just went on a psychopathic killing spree and actually threw away a chance a peace with the deceps .

and what planet are you on if you think shooting an unarmed combatant in the head isnt a war crime.

there are people in JAIL for that sort of thing right now.

SlyTF1 wrote:

partholon wrote:
Maybe if you actually look past just the images that show up on the screen, youll find the characters.

SlyTF1 wrote:
Prove it.

simple.

revenge of the fallen. when opitimus prime tracked down and executed a defeated opponent by shooting him in the head.

to paraphrase a quote from the franchise "thats not prime".

bay had the autobots acting like a death squad FFS. thats how megatron does things.

and thats before you get to the whole "face ripping " stuff later on.

So what? You expected him to let Demolisher continue to terrorize the planet? Maybe you missed the part in the animated movie when Optimus swept through Autobot City, murdered all those Decepticons, then proceeded to beat Megatron, and attempt to execute him on the spot. Again, you expect Optimus to let Decepticons run rampant on Earth? No. He's supposed to exterminate them before they become an even bigger problem.

[/quote]


In Autobot City the Decepticons were an invading force, and were killed by Optimus while they were still up and kicking, I.E. while they were still threats. Even with Megatron in that scene you can argue he was still a threat, especially after seeing what happened when Hot Rod intervened. Also, kup was the one who advocated for the execution, which Optimus didn't remark on, simply holding him at gun point.

Meanwhile in RotF, demolisher was completely immobile before Optimus executed him on the spot after making a witty quip. That is not something I would expect from Optimus as I've known him. Heck our law enforcement agencies tend to frown on gangster style executions, why shouldn't Optimus? Really the Autobots as a whole are uncharacteristically brutal throughout the entire movie series, like in DotM when the wreckers rip that Decepticon pilot out of his ship and literally quarter him in the most painful fashion possible, or again in DotM when Optimus pretty much does the exact same thing Megatron did to him in the 1986 moive, only this time Megatron was the merciful one.

It's not like the brutality is expressed for any sort of character driven reasons either. Like in Prime, it's actually brought up a few times that Prime should have killed Megatron multiple times, but didn't out of mercy, and it's actual a big bit of dynamism when he decides to confront Megatron and kill him at the end of season 1. In Bay's films I suspect that the Autobots callously execute members of their own species for the sake of onscreen spectacle, rather than making any commentaries on the characters themselves.

SlyTF1 wrote:

partholon wrote:he's the leader of an army.

the MORAL leader of an army. ya mightve noticed he DIDNT execute megs in the animated film cause thats not what a hero does to a hepless opponent. hence why his had was forced by hot rods intervention.

demolisher was defeated. all they had to do was pack him up and lock him away on their island base. and seeing as he had Intel on the fallen THAT would actualy make sense.

but no its punisher prime with a bullet to the head cause bay thinks thats cool.

and it is, its a bad ass moment, but its not optimus prime

bay has yet to portray prime the way cullen describes him. in fact he's yet to portray him in a way that wouldnt mark him a war criminal if he was a human doing the same stuff to human opponents.

and on the characters front.

you REALLY think he's captured ratchets character? name ONE bot he treats as a doctor over the entire trilogy? he doesnt even lift a finger to examine primes corpse in the second film.

if you changed the names of the entire supporting cast of bots the story would still make the exact amount of sense that it does now.

ironhides meant to be primes best friend and he dies entirely unremarked by him in the third film. that couldve been good emotional ammo for primes fight with sentinel but nothing was done with it.

the character arcs in these films are soley about the humans. not the transformers.

He didn't kill Megatron, because Hot Rod got in the way.

So, in exchange for putting Demolisher down in probably one of the most humane ways to terminate an enemy in war, it would have been just fine to harbor a prisoner of war for no reason? And if he ever got lose? Imagine the damage he would cause at the base. He'd likely even call in reinforcements and give away the Autobot's base of operations. And how is shooting someone in the head a war crime? Keeping an enemy as a POW like that is a war crime. They'd probably just leave him in a cage to starve to death.

In terms of Ironhide being Optimus's best friend, why do you think Optimus was so pissed off at Sentinel? Optimus has never been the kind of person to show his emotions so blatantly. When he blew Sentinel's face off, that was payback for Ironhide.

In our wars, summary execution of POWs is a war crime. We can't just kill a wounded enemy because we feel like it, the Geneva convention terms were written to prevent that sort of thing. Even POWs wounded in battle are supposed to be given medical treatment and not just put down because it would be inconvenient to house them. Shooting someone in the head during a conflict between able bodied combatants isn't a war crime, but summary executions are. Even knowing the kind of danger that Decepticons present, you'd think that someone with Optimus' supposed moral high ground would recognize that's a pretty bad thing to do to someone.

It actually might be a pretty neat commentary on the horrors of war given that both the Autobots and Decepticons in these movies afford themselves pretty much the same level of battlefield courtesy, but given that it's never brought up in the films at all and that all the promotional materials we get keep acting like these are the classically moral characters we all know and love I doubt this is the case.

ya mean like over the previous two years when demolishor was free to do just that but cringed in hiding from an autobot death squad instead like the rest of his kind ?

its not the autobots job to exterminate the decepticons, that'd make em just like them. its their job to stop them. prime in these films has been acting just like grimlock would if HE was running the autobots.

hot rod "got in the way" cause he was written that way as character device- cause flint dille and ron fridman knew they couldnt have prime execute a defenceless megatron without killing everything that makes him a heroic character.

but a guy using an autobot as sheild weilding a hidden weapon he was inching toward while lying his ass off. THAT guy you can kill.

bays prime in dark of the moon knew nothing of what happned to ironhide and just went on a psychopathic killing spree and actually threw away a chance a peace with the deceps .

and what planet are you on if you think shooting an unarmed combatant in the head isnt a war crime.

there are people in JAIL for that sort of thing right now.



That is when you are wrong...
Demolishor was a treat for autobots and humans, is not worth of living a being like that.
Prime could never make a deal with Megatron, He is a mercenary, doom , bringer, thats would kill his own mother.
Sentinel was about to kill Prime, so He is never more trustful .What Prime should do? Forgive him? After Ironhide`s death? AfTER they tried to kill all the autobots by Strscreem? And tried destroys earth and make human kind as slaves? Does Sentinel deserved to live??
Its all fantasy , but in places like BRAZIL where day by day police fight crime organized, is a war, or you kill or you die!

partholon wrote:ya mean like over the previous two years when demolishor was free to do just that but cringed in hiding from an autobot death squad instead like the rest of his kind ?

its not the autobots job to exterminate the decepticons, that'd make em just like them. its their job to stop them. prime in these films has been acting just like grimlock would if HE was running the autobots.

hot rod "got in the way" cause he was written that way as character device- cause flint dille and ron fridman knew they couldnt have prime execute a defenceless megatron without killing everything that makes him a heroic character.

but a guy using an autobot as sheild weilding a hidden weapon he was inching toward while lying his ass off. THAT guy you can kill.

bays prime in dark of the moon knew nothing of what happned to ironhide and just went on a psychopathic killing spree and actually threw away a chance a peace with the deceps .

and what planet are you on if you think shooting an unarmed combatant in the head isnt a war crime.

there are people in JAIL for that sort of thing right now.

It is their job to exterminate them. It doesn't make them just like the Decepticons. The only difference between the Autbots and Decepticons, anyway is that Decepticons will go to extreme measures to get what they want. Neutralizing a threat is not an extreme measure. And how the hell wouldn't Optimus know about what happened to Ironhide? You don't think someone would have told him what that huge pile of rust out in front of the base was? Also, Optimus would never accept a truce with the Decepticons. Why should he after all they've done?

Anyway, I think that was done to show how war changes people. Optimus started off begging for peace, and Megatron started off being ruthless. And at the end of DOTM, they had both basically taken each other's positions. It's irony.

ricemazter wrote:

SlyTF1 wrote:

partholon wrote:he's the leader of an army.

the MORAL leader of an army. ya mightve noticed he DIDNT execute megs in the animated film cause thats not what a hero does to a hepless opponent. hence why his had was forced by hot rods intervention.

demolisher was defeated. all they had to do was pack him up and lock him away on their island base. and seeing as he had Intel on the fallen THAT would actualy make sense.

but no its punisher prime with a bullet to the head cause bay thinks thats cool.

and it is, its a bad ass moment, but its not optimus prime

bay has yet to portray prime the way cullen describes him. in fact he's yet to portray him in a way that wouldnt mark him a war criminal if he was a human doing the same stuff to human opponents.

and on the characters front.

you REALLY think he's captured ratchets character? name ONE bot he treats as a doctor over the entire trilogy? he doesnt even lift a finger to examine primes corpse in the second film.

if you changed the names of the entire supporting cast of bots the story would still make the exact amount of sense that it does now.

ironhides meant to be primes best friend and he dies entirely unremarked by him in the third film. that couldve been good emotional ammo for primes fight with sentinel but nothing was done with it.

the character arcs in these films are soley about the humans. not the transformers.

He didn't kill Megatron, because Hot Rod got in the way.

So, in exchange for putting Demolisher down in probably one of the most humane ways to terminate an enemy in war, it would have been just fine to harbor a prisoner of war for no reason? And if he ever got lose? Imagine the damage he would cause at the base. He'd likely even call in reinforcements and give away the Autobot's base of operations. And how is shooting someone in the head a war crime? Keeping an enemy as a POW like that is a war crime. They'd probably just leave him in a cage to starve to death.

In terms of Ironhide being Optimus's best friend, why do you think Optimus was so pissed off at Sentinel? Optimus has never been the kind of person to show his emotions so blatantly. When he blew Sentinel's face off, that was payback for Ironhide.

In our wars, summary execution of POWs is a war crime. We can't just kill a wounded enemy because we feel like it, the Geneva convention terms were written to prevent that sort of thing. Even POWs wounded in battle are supposed to be given medical treatment and not just put down because it would be inconvenient to house them. Shooting someone in the head during a conflict between able bodied combatants isn't a war crime, but summary executions are. Even knowing the kind of danger that Decepticons present, you'd think that someone with Optimus' supposed moral high ground would recognize that's a pretty bad thing to do to someone.

It actually might be a pretty neat commentary on the horrors of war given that both the Autobots and Decepticons in these movies afford themselves pretty much the same level of battlefield courtesy, but given that it's never brought up in the films at all and that all the promotional materials we get keep acting like these are the classically moral characters we all know and love I doubt this is the case.

In real life, you don't get the chance to take the "moral high ground." Movie Optimus is more of a realistic interpenetration of what Optimus Prime was. It's kill one to save thousands.

Woah, what happened to this topic? :O

SlyTF1 wrote:
It is their job to exterminate them. It doesn't make them just like the Decepticons. The only difference between the Autbots and Decepticons, anyway is that Decepticons will go to extreme measures to get what they want. Neutralizing a threat is not an extreme measure. And how the hell wouldn't Optimus know about what happened to Ironhide? You don't think someone would have told him what that huge pile of rust out in front of the base was? Also, Optimus would never accept a truce with the Decepticons. Why should he after all they've done?

Anyway, I think that was done to show how war changes people. Optimus started off begging for peace, and Megatron started off being ruthless. And at the end of DOTM, they had both basically taken each other's positions. It's irony...

...In real life, you don't get the chance to take the "moral high ground." Movie Optimus is more of a realistic interpenetration of what Optimus Prime was. It's kill one to save thousands.

In a realistic interpretation, Optimus would have been tried as a war criminal for not taking the moral high ground (heck Impactor was tried and imprisoned for doing exactly what Prime does here). As a character he's supposed to be the hero, moral archetype that we all should look up to which includes mercy. I think someone else already mentioned that this version of Prime is more akin to the Punisher than anything else, who is not a heroic character. I'd be fine with this portrayal of Prime if the needs of the many thing was actually explored in the movies, like it was in the Prime TV show. But here, the brutality is exploited for spectacle without any serious attempts at building these characters.

In terms of saving people though, Prime isn't very good at that here either as he decides to follow a plan that engages a dangerous fugitive in a highly populated area, probably resulting in the injury or death of a couple hundred along the way. Again, if this issue was explored at all, I'd be fine with it, yet they still choose to characterize Prime as this figure for all that is good and just despite not doing that in his actions.

It would be nice if the movies themselves appreciated the ironies they keep creating, but the Autobots and Decepticons in these things started off the way they are and keep up their brutal ways throughout.

ricemazter wrote:

SlyTF1 wrote:
It is their job to exterminate them. It doesn't make them just like the Decepticons. The only difference between the Autbots and Decepticons, anyway is that Decepticons will go to extreme measures to get what they want. Neutralizing a threat is not an extreme measure. And how the hell wouldn't Optimus know about what happened to Ironhide? You don't think someone would have told him what that huge pile of rust out in front of the base was? Also, Optimus would never accept a truce with the Decepticons. Why should he after all they've done?

Anyway, I think that was done to show how war changes people. Optimus started off begging for peace, and Megatron started off being ruthless. And at the end of DOTM, they had both basically taken each other's positions. It's irony...

...In real life, you don't get the chance to take the "moral high ground." Movie Optimus is more of a realistic interpenetration of what Optimus Prime was. It's kill one to save thousands.

In a realistic interpretation, Optimus would have been tried as a war criminal for not taking the moral high ground (heck Impactor was tried and imprisoned for doing exactly what Prime does here). As a character he's supposed to be the hero, moral archetype that we all should look up to which includes mercy. I think someone else already mentioned that this version of Prime is more akin to the Punisher than anything else, who is not a heroic character. I'd be fine with this portrayal of Prime if the needs of the many thing was actually explored in the movies, like it was in the Prime TV show. But here, the brutality is exploited for spectacle without any serious attempts at building these characters.

In terms of saving people though, Prime isn't very good at that here either as he decides to follow a plan that engages a dangerous fugitive in a highly populated area, probably resulting in the injury or death of a couple hundred along the way. Again, if this issue was explored at all, I'd be fine with it, yet they still choose to characterize Prime as this figure for all that is good and just despite not doing that in his actions.

It would be nice if the movies themselves appreciated the ironies they keep creating, but the Autobots and Decepticons in these things started off the way they are and keep up their brutal ways throughout.

Tried as a war criminal in a one sided war? Who would hold the charges against him? Megatron? Doubtful.

Fires_Of_Inferno wrote:Woah, what happened to this topic? :O

That's what I want to know...

wait so how has primes character not changed? last i checked he never executed a defeated enemy, never condoned death squad mentality or actions, never said anything like "kill them all" and not once did he rip someones head off up until bayformers. Prime went from being an actual hero to a borderline decepticon. Killing in the heat of battle is one thing but to gun down a helpless adversary who cant defend themself at all is not heroic. Id expect that from megatron or an anti-hero like spawn or deadpool but optimus prime no way in hell, i dont even think he would have killed megatron in the 86 movie because it just goes against what he stands for. He doesnt even show any kind of remorse for the lives hes taken. Optimus protects life he doenst destroy it, and thats just one of the many things wrong with bayformers.

Y'all are just pissy because Prime is finally "humanized". You think Peter's brother was never placed in a difficult situation during his combat times? Do you honestly think that you have the right to attribute characteristics to this fictional, iconic character more so than the man who voices the character, who gives life to Prime and basically channels anothers soul into the essence of this character?

Get your asses shot at, have the lives of a platoon of soldiers or, better yet, the lives of 7 billion innocent bystanders forced to deal with a war YOU brought into their backyard and try to tell me you won't do WHATEVER it takes to make it end. You'd kill your own men, your own family members to save 7 billion lives and you'd let that decision torture your soul until you drew your last breath but you'd still make the same damn call. THAT is the kind of dedication a Marine has and THAT is what Cullen is drawing on for inspiration to give voice to Prime. A brother whom he loved dearly and whose loyalty and dedication to his family and his country was unyielding.

What WE think Prime should be doesn't mean jack-sh** compared to that. I salute Peter, I salute his brother and honor him by accepting Prime for how he his in any story. If Peter has an issue with how Prime is portrayed by the writers or any director, you can damn well bet he's going to stand up and say something about it. The whole thing falls apart if he decides to walk out at any point. Bay knows it, the writers know it and you can bet your whole bot collection on the fact that Cullen knows the power he commands too.
This whole damn thread spiraled out of control needlessly and senselessly. You guys should be ashamed of yourselves. Lets get back to paying Peter some respect and just leave it at that!

SlyTF1 wrote:
Tried as a war criminal in a one sided war? Who would hold the charges against him? Megatron? Doubtful.

The point is that if this Optimus matched the heroic and just Optimus that has been established as a character by years of transformers continuity, and in text by these movies, he shouldn't be commiting war crimes at all. Megatron, on the other hand would have executed Optimus, as that's what the decepticons have been doing for years, and is their established character trait.

For the sake of argument though, the Autobots would have tried him as they, again take the moral high ground. Autobot war crimes against the Decepticons were tried in an Autobot court run by the Aequitas computer in the comics. That's how Impactor was shipped off to Garrus 9 after summarily executing Squadron-X.

T-Macksimus wrote:Y'all are just pissy because Prime is finally "humanized". You think Peter's brother was never placed in a difficult situation during his combat times? Do you honestly think that you have the right to attribute characteristics to this fictional, iconic character more so than the man who voices the character, who gives life to Prime and basically channels anothers soul into the essence of this character?

Get your asses shot at, have the lives of a platoon of soldiers or, better yet, the lives of 7 billion innocent bystanders forced to deal with a war YOU brought into their backyard and try to tell me you won't do WHATEVER it takes to make it end. You'd kill your own men, your own family members to save 7 billion lives and you'd let that decision torture your soul until you drew your last breath but you'd still make the same damn call. THAT is the kind of dedication a Marine has and THAT is what Cullen is drawing on for inspiration to give voice to Prime. A brother whom he loved dearly and whose loyalty and dedication to his family and his country was unyielding.

What WE think Prime should be doesn't mean jack-sh** compared to that. I salute Peter, I salute his brother and honor him by accepting Prime for how he his in any story. If Peter has an issue with how Prime is portrayed by the writers or any director, you can damn well bet he's going to stand up and say something about it. The whole thing falls apart if he decides to walk out at any point. Bay knows it, the writers know it and you can bet your whole bot collection on the fact that Cullen knows the power he commands too.
This whole damn thread spiraled out of control needlessly and senselessly. You guys should be ashamed of yourselves. Lets get back to paying Peter some respect and just leave it at that!

My point, exactly.

SlyTF1 wrote:

T-Macksimus wrote:Y'all are just pissy because Prime is finally "humanized". You think Peter's brother was never placed in a difficult situation during his combat times? Do you honestly think that you have the right to attribute characteristics to this fictional, iconic character more so than the man who voices the character, who gives life to Prime and basically channels anothers soul into the essence of this character?

Get your asses shot at, have the lives of a platoon of soldiers or, better yet, the lives of 7 billion innocent bystanders forced to deal with a war YOU brought into their backyard and try to tell me you won't do WHATEVER it takes to make it end. You'd kill your own men, your own family members to save 7 billion lives and you'd let that decision torture your soul until you drew your last breath but you'd still make the same damn call. THAT is the kind of dedication a Marine has and THAT is what Cullen is drawing on for inspiration to give voice to Prime. A brother whom he loved dearly and whose loyalty and dedication to his family and his country was unyielding.

What WE think Prime should be doesn't mean jack-sh** compared to that. I salute Peter, I salute his brother and honor him by accepting Prime for how he his in any story. If Peter has an issue with how Prime is portrayed by the writers or any director, you can damn well bet he's going to stand up and say something about it. The whole thing falls apart if he decides to walk out at any point. Bay knows it, the writers know it and you can bet your whole bot collection on the fact that Cullen knows the power he commands too.
This whole damn thread spiraled out of control needlessly and senselessly. You guys should be ashamed of yourselves. Lets get back to paying Peter some respect and just leave it at that!

My point, exactly.

I don't think anyone here was criticizing how Peter Cullen portrays Optimus Prime or saying that the emotion he puts into the character is anything less than a sincere reflection of him channeling his personal hero, his brother, into his art form. However, Peter Cullen has voiced Prime through numerous iterations of the role, whether it be the fun romp that was G1 or the Bayformers franchise, and each interpretation can be analyzed as significantly different from the one before.

I don't see why we can't calmly discuss the merits of one particular interpretation over the other, and give criticism on a movie where criticism is due. Attributing characteristics to characters and reflecting on their actions is a big part of how we get at the core of a fictional world and the creative center that artists like Cullen add to them.

If anything, I dislike how Bay and the writers have handled these characters, and can still find room to appreciate Cullen's heartfelt performance. I too would like to salute him and his brother while maintaining my criticisms of these films and character portrayals.

T-Macksimus wrote:Get your asses shot at, have the lives of a platoon of soldiers or, better yet, the lives of 7 billion innocent bystanders forced to deal with a war YOU brought into their backyard and try to tell me you won't do WHATEVER it takes to make it end. You'd kill your own men, your own family members to save 7 billion lives and you'd let that decision torture your soul until you drew your last breath but you'd still make the same damn call. THAT is the kind of dedication a Marine has and THAT is what Cullen is drawing on for inspiration to give voice to Prime. A brother whom he loved dearly and whose loyalty and dedication to his family and his country was unyielding.

Wait, I'm not sure I'm reading this right, but it sounds like you're implying that a solder would just as easily kill his own mother as he would an enemy solder if the lives of others were at stake. That doesn't exactly fill me with comfort, but again, I'm not sure I read it right.

I'm trying to imagine myself in Prime's shoes, regarding the Demolisher thing, and appreciating that a lot depends on where you're fighting your battle. Fighting Decepticons on Cybertron, where you are the boss, is very different from fighting a war in diaspora. See, this is how I'm imagining it:

I'm stranded on a planet of sentient hamsters, who've cautiously agreed to cooperate with me provided we round up all of our mutual enemies, kill them, and dump them in the deepest, darkest part of their ocean. They haven't offered space or resources for holding enemies captive - the agreement is, kill them, or don't work with us.

So then we corner one of our mutual enemies...

Prime weighs roughly 15,000 lbs as a Peterbilt 379, while Demolisher would come in at 1,778,000 lbs as a Bucyrus RH400 mining excavator. So Demolisher is roughly 120 times larger than Prime. Relatively speaking, this would be like me holding a monstrosity that weighs over 30,000 lbs at gun point - a beast *twice* the size of a Tyrannosaurus Rex.

So, I'm standing here, staring down a Super-T-Rex with my shotgun, surrounded by clamoring blood thirsty hamsters, and I have to consider - that Super-T-Rex has God only knows what else hidden inside him - a concealed machine gun? Probably. Hidden blades? Almost certainly. A swarm of hamster-sized death bots? Not unheard of. A slightly less intimidating, slightly smaller version of himself? My best friends got one of those, so why not? A spacebridge that can teleport the entire Decepticon army to his location? Stretching credibility, but it's happened. A wireless communication device housed deep in his brain? Don't we all?

So I'm thinking, I /could/ drag this super-T-Rex back to the tiny, squishy yet surprisingly vicious hamsters' secret labs, where they can vivisect him, crawl inside him, and /then/ find out what nasty things are inside him. Or I can shoot him, once in the face, and be done with it.

I'll admit, I'd be leaning towards the lesser of two evils... especially if I were Demolisher.

Caelus wrote:I'm trying to imagine myself in Prime's shoes, regarding the Demolisher thing, and appreciating that a lot depends on where you're fighting your battle. Fighting Decepticons on Cybertron, where you are the boss, is very different from fighting a war in diaspora. See, this is how I'm imagining it:

I'm stranded on a planet of sentient hamsters, who've cautiously agreed to cooperate with me provided we round up all of our mutual enemies, kill them, and dump them in the deepest, darkest part of their ocean. They haven't offered space or resources for holding enemies captive - the agreement is, kill them, or don't work with us.

So then we corner one of our mutual enemies...

Prime weighs roughly 15,000 lbs as a Peterbilt 379, while Demolisher would come in at 1,778,000 lbs as a Bucyrus RH400 mining excavator. So Demolisher is roughly 120 times larger than Prime. Relatively speaking, this would be like me holding a monstrosity that weighs over 30,000 lbs at gun point - a beast *twice* the size of a Tyrannosaurus Rex.

So, I'm standing here, staring down a Super-T-Rex with my shotgun, surrounded by clamoring blood thirsty hamsters, and I have to consider - that Super-T-Rex has God only knows what else hidden inside him - a concealed machine gun? Probably. Hidden blades? Almost certainly. A swarm of hamster-sized death bots? Not unheard of. A slightly less intimidating, slightly smaller version of himself? My best friends got one of those, so why not? A spacebridge that can teleport the entire Decepticon army to his location? Stretching credibility, but it's happened. A wireless communication device housed deep in his brain? Don't we all?

So I'm thinking, I /could/ drag this super-T-Rex back to the tiny, squishy yet surprisingly vicious hamsters' secret labs, where they can vivisect him, crawl inside him, and /then/ find out what nasty things are inside him. Or I can shoot him, once in the face, and be done with it.

I'll admit, I'd be leaning towards the lesser of two evils... especially if I were Demolisher.

Very well put.

OMG I can't even...

Hey, Seibertron, you might want to either enforce some sense or close this thread before it spirals out of control even more. They closed it over on TFW because everyone started the whole "Movie Prime is a murderous psychopath" argument again.

I think my brain just exploded by reading all these comments

You know... this whole talk about "war crimes" is a completely human thing. Transformers fight on their own rules, right?

Oh, and in the 80's movie, Optimus was about to blow away Megatron and Megatron feigned to beg for mercy. Optimus was remarking on how unlike ol' Megs that was while Megs was going for a gun.

Speaking of killin' bots.... how about Heavy Metal War, you know, end of Season 1? They pushed all the 'Cons into the lava. Seems like that was tryin' to kill 'em all to me.

All this talk over movie Prime not acting like Prime... it's what, a several million year old war? Anyone fightin' for that long and still kickin' is going to have to be a stone cold killer. Optimus may be a good guy and moral and all that, but some bots just need shootin' in the head.

War crimes? On my Earth?

Prime didn't kill enough of those genocidal Decepticons imho.

Optimus Prime in AOE seems way different than any version of Prime in series & in the Shia Trilogy.

In this version in AOE, Prime seems to have lost all hope, he doesn't know who to trust, so he seems to be at his breaking point.

What do I do, when those I protect become my enemy & my greatest threat.

Breaking is what I would call Prime Directive "Never Attack Humans". But seen in AOE Trailer Optimus was cleary attacking the Government Agents.

But I would also do the same, if I had my back against the wall, the Allies I thought were my Allies turned on me, I would fight with everything I have no matter the cost.

I also would have already been attacking the humans anyways for previous actions such as in DOTM the Humans keeping secrets & lying to the Transformers I wouldn't appreciate that very much.

Now you have the Transformers up againt the wall, with the Humans wanting their Extinction. So if I was Optimus Prime, I would protect my Family & Friends "NO MATTER THE COST"

I would attack anything in my path, why you would consider this a Darker in Tone Optimus Prime, I would consider this a Dangerous & Desperate Optimus Prime.

Also this is so much like X-Men in X-Men they do not like the Mutants, but they will not hesitate to use Mutant Powers or Make a Mutant Drug from it. Yet they will kill the mutant with the Sentinels.

Now in AOE you have The Humans they Hate Transformers but they are making their own Transformers such as Galvatron.

Seems Humans are Hypicrits in both AOE & IN DOFP.

They will Kill but they Will Use their powers.

We heard from voice actor Peter Cullen not too long ago, about his portrayal of Optimus Prime in the past and in the upcoming Transformers: Age of Extinction movie. Thanks to LA Times' Hero Complex, we now get even more insight into the voice of Optimus Prime and his approach to the character. Check it out here, and a snippet below!

Auditioning with director Michael Bay for the role of Optimus Prime in 2007’s live-action movie adaptation of the beloved animated series “Transformers,” Canadian-born vocal artist Peter Cullen was aware that his previous accomplishments hardly guaranteed his place in a big-budget Hollywood movie.

“It’s kind of surreal to audition for a character that you basically created,” said Cullen, who originated the Autobot’s stentorian voice in TV performances from 1984 to ‘87. “But I didn’t expect Michael to know what I knew about ‘Transformers.’ I was ready for anything.”

[...]

Contractually obligated to continue voicing Optimus in at least two more “Transformers” sequels, Cullen has no plans to retire his robot-in-disguise alter ego anytime soon. Moreover, having based the characterization on his older brother, a decorated Marine Corps officer who served in Vietnam, the actor feels a sense of responsibility to the franchise’s faithful.

“My brother said, ‘Peter, be a real hero. Don’t do all the bravado stuff and pretend to be tough. Be strong enough to be gentle. Be understanding — and calm,’” Cullen said. “When I began the audition, his voice came right out. I read the lines the way I could hear my brother doing it.

“Now, maintaining those characteristics — courage, trustworthiness, integrity, loyalty — you’re responsible for something to the kids who watch Optimus Prime. I want to be a positive influence rather than just fighting and sock, bang, boom!”

I love this guy, his voice, his love of Transformers and his commitment to the character: he is a gift to the world in this respect. But somehow, I can't accept the Bay-verse Optimus Prime as the great role-model the G1 version was. In the movies he has, at various points, callously left people to die to pursue his own objectives; mercilessly destroyed beaten opponents; destroyed (or at least partially destroyed) his home planet and, by appearances from the trailers of this new movie, betrayed his own race in favour of cowering in fear, hiding out and wasting time as a beat-up old truck in some douchebag's barn while humanity hunt and destroy his fellow Cybertronians. Not quite the admirable, self-sacrificing protector of the universe we've seen in other continuities, in my opinion. Is this still the best way for Mr Cullen to honour his heroic, fallen brother?

I cant deny that the franchise as a whole has benefited greatly from Bay-formers but Michael Bay and Peter Cullen...Someone said it before me but I just really feel that Peter Cullen's Optimus is NOTHING like the way Michael Bay wants to portray Optimus.

How quaint that y'all seem to think that Optimus should be portrayed on a God-like level and that you think Cullen is doing his brother a disservice by giving voice to Bays version. The simple fact of the matter is that Bayverse Optimus is more like what a Marine would be but what some of you are failing to take into account is that you are projecting your idealized versions onto a being stuck in "real world" situations. You have the lives of your troops in your hands and the lives of billions of innocents hanging on the razors edge of your every decision AND you are outnumbered. The black and white decisions that you think Optimus should be making are no longer so "black and white", they carry the most dire of consequences. It's not about rushing in and kicking ass, you sometimes have to wait, pick your battles and carry the burden of having to decide what are "acceptable losses' and what or who must sacrificed in the short term to achieve your ultimate goal in the long term. That's a combat leaders role: Making the best you can of an absolutely f'd up situation.
Look at the motto on the original G1 Huffers' bio: "Nobody wins a war... somebody loses!" Leadership in a military situation, at least for a leader who is actually out there in the field watching his men fight and die, is like living in the first level of Hell itself, every decision torturing you, the whole world weighing down on you and you have to make choices at the speed of light, oftentimes with limited intel.
So please...tell me again how you think you boys have the right to dictate how Prime should be or whether or not you think Peter is doing a disservice to his brother. I'd really like to see the Generals Stars on any of your shoulders that tell me that you have a better perspective on the situation than myself, Cullen or any active duty military personnel who have been in combat situations.
The Movie Prime may not be the hyper-optimistic G1 version we enjoyed as children but at least this one is closer to reality than the original. It's a screwed up world we live in and instead of giving a kid an unrealistic perspective, this Prime is showing that the world is cruel, it hurts and it's out to kill you but be patient, don't lose hope or faith in yourself and you will overcome what it throws at you. For being a giant alien robot, this Prime is remarkably "human" and that's all thanks to what Peter has projected into the character.

Even if Optimus Prime in Bay Movies is the propably the worst action movie her ever (Whimp with unlimited luck), but it's still really hard to consider him as a total failure, mostly due to the Peter's voice. And that's propably says all about how awesome Cullen really is. Even if there is a little to much of him today, Franchise wouldn't be the same without him.

T-Macksimus wrote:How quaint that y'all seem to think that Optimus should be portrayed on a God-like level and that you think Cullen is doing his brother a disservice by giving voice to Bays version. The simple fact of the matter is that Bayverse Optimus is more like what a Marine would be but what some of you are failing to take into account is that you are projecting your idealized versions onto a being stuck in "real world" situations. You have the lives of your troops in your hands and the lives of billions of innocents hanging on the razors edge of your every decision AND you are outnumbered. The black and white decisions that you think Optimus should be making are no longer so "black and white", they carry the most dire of consequences. It's not about rushing in and kicking ass, you sometimes have to wait, pick your battles and carry the burden of having to decide what are "acceptable losses' and what or who must sacrificed in the short term to achieve your ultimate goal in the long term. That's a combat leaders role: Making the best you can of an absolutely f'd up situation.
Look at the motto on the original G1 Huffers' bio: "Nobody wins a war... somebody loses!" Leadership in a military situation, at least for a leader who is actually out there in the field watching his men fight and die, is like living in the first level of Hell itself, every decision torturing you, the whole world weighing down on you and you have to make choices at the speed of light, oftentimes with limited intel.
So please...tell me again how you think you boys have the right to dictate how Prime should be or whether or not you think Peter is doing a disservice to his brother. I'd really like to see the Generals Stars on any of your shoulders that tell me that you have a better perspective on the situation than myself, Cullen or any active duty military personnel who have been in combat situations.
The Movie Prime may not be the hyper-optimistic G1 version we enjoyed as children but at least this one is closer to reality than the original. It's a screwed up world we live in and instead of giving a kid an unrealistic perspective, this Prime is showing that the world is cruel, it hurts and it's out to kill you but be patient, don't lose hope or faith in yourself and you will overcome what it throws at you. For being a giant alien robot, this Prime is remarkably "human" and that's all thanks to what Peter has projected into the character.

As a army veteran, original G1 fan and someone who enjoys the movies, I have to agree with everything you said, well put.

Moonshot wrote:

T-Macksimus wrote:How quaint that y'all seem to think that Optimus should be portrayed on a God-like level and that you think Cullen is doing his brother a disservice by giving voice to Bays version. The simple fact of the matter is that Bayverse Optimus is more like what a Marine would be but what some of you are failing to take into account is that you are projecting your idealized versions onto a being stuck in "real world" situations. You have the lives of your troops in your hands and the lives of billions of innocents hanging on the razors edge of your every decision AND you are outnumbered. The black and white decisions that you think Optimus should be making are no longer so "black and white", they carry the most dire of consequences. It's not about rushing in and kicking ass, you sometimes have to wait, pick your battles and carry the burden of having to decide what are "acceptable losses' and what or who must sacrificed in the short term to achieve your ultimate goal in the long term. That's a combat leaders role: Making the best you can of an absolutely f'd up situation.
Look at the motto on the original G1 Huffers' bio: "Nobody wins a war... somebody loses!" Leadership in a military situation, at least for a leader who is actually out there in the field watching his men fight and die, is like living in the first level of Hell itself, every decision torturing you, the whole world weighing down on you and you have to make choices at the speed of light, oftentimes with limited intel.
So please...tell me again how you think you boys have the right to dictate how Prime should be or whether or not you think Peter is doing a disservice to his brother. I'd really like to see the Generals Stars on any of your shoulders that tell me that you have a better perspective on the situation than myself, Cullen or any active duty military personnel who have been in combat situations.
The Movie Prime may not be the hyper-optimistic G1 version we enjoyed as children but at least this one is closer to reality than the original. It's a screwed up world we live in and instead of giving a kid an unrealistic perspective, this Prime is showing that the world is cruel, it hurts and it's out to kill you but be patient, don't lose hope or faith in yourself and you will overcome what it throws at you. For being a giant alien robot, this Prime is remarkably "human" and that's all thanks to what Peter has projected into the character.

As a army veteran, original G1 fan and someone who enjoys the movies, I have to agree with everything you said, well put.

As an aspiring Marine... I'm pretty much forced to agree.

Revenge of the Fallen Prime is still my favourite because he was the most badass.

“My brother said, ‘Peter, be a real hero. Don’t do all the bravado stuff and pretend to be tough. Be strong enough to be gentle. Be understanding - and calm,'" Cullen said. “When I began the audition, his voice came right out. I read the lines the way I could hear my brother doing it.


Thats pretty much it.

Also...

“Now, maintaining those characteristics - courage, trustworthiness, integrity, loyalty - you’re responsible for something to the kids who watch Optimus Prime. I want to be a positive influence rather than just fighting and sock, bang, boom!"

The film is more real obviously than the cartoons but Prime is a bit off how he has been prtrayed for years. Macksimus, it doesn't matter what you think about how Peter voices it, he can't change the script, he reads the lines with maybe a bit of ad libbing. The writers and Bay are responsible for how Prime is shown to us, Peter 'just' does his amazing voice thing. Im not saying Prime shouldn't do what is necessary but you comparing him to a Marine is a fallacy. Hes in charge of his race on another planet.

The Marine thing was to honour his brother and that is good, but it doesnt reflect how Bay and the writers want to portray him. He still uses his voice to endow that character with what he has before. His brother only died recently but his inspiration was felt before (like in G1). A lot of Americans love the whole 'kill stuff with guns' thing. There was a case about a sergeant not so long ago in a war zone executing someone in a war zone....


http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/cr ... 85102.html

I admire soldiers for the work they do but killing their own families? You're off your rocker fella. Don't make the whole Prime thing about being a Marine.

Unfortunately violence and the like sells in films; guns explosions and death, so it was inevitable Prime, the films main guy would end up doing something like this I guess. I just blame Bay. It doesnt necessarily make the films bad for that reason alone, I think they could have done something else, but then I always loved 80's Prime so go figure

I have never been involved in any military situation, I know very little about it, I have never fired a gun. All I can say is that Bayverse Prime, while can come across to others as "violent", especially before his battle with Sentinel. However, as the Leader, he has to make the tough choices, the ones that Sentinel couldn't make. His adopted planet told them to go home and basically allowed Decepticons to take over. Prime did what he had to all in service of protecting life, even if that means killing his own kind and sacrificing his home planet.
I remember reading how angry fans were that the Wreckers tore apart that Decepticon so violently, completely forgetting that this Decepticon just murdered innocent people, without hesitation, and somehow the Autobots are the bad guys.
What Bayverse Prime does seems pretty fair for the situation, one in which I myself have never been in but can at least appreciate. Choose your battles cause the wrong move could destroy a lot more than just yourself, like the entire adopted planet and all life on it.
Also, the forest battle in ROTF was still one of my favorites scenes.
"You'll never stop at one. I'll take you all on!"
Cue excellent score, what Prime fight to protect Sam. He may fail, but that's how he rolls.

The movies attempt to portray realistic warfare scenarios that, up until TF: Prime, had never really been reflected in most of the TF cartoons. There had been shades of it here and there in some of the cartoons, but the movies were really the first motion pictures of the brand to really hit home with the concept. While the cartoons did speak of the conflict being a war, it was mostly depicted in the style of what superhero genre stories had come to be like, rather than really taking the concepts of war and warfare to heart, for the sake of appealing to young children without bringing down the wrath of unhappy parents and/or other authorities.

Since the movies were really the first really big and really mainstream TF thing to strive for actual war genre levels of violence and situations, they also went with a portrayal of Optimus that's more evocative of a real life soldier leader over the more child-friendly superhero commander that he had come to be known to be like in all the years before. In real life, the "good guys" don't just let the enemy get away to keep fighting another day after some harebrained scheme of there's was foiled; they fight to the bitter end. Thus, Optimus takes far less prisoners in the movies and has a much smaller conscience about killing his enemies in general (not just about killing them when they're defenseless, but even about killing them in battle as well, which itself rarely happened at all in many of the pre-movie cartoons).

Lots of people point to the season finale of Animated as an example of how Optimus should act in the movies, in which he chose to take a defenseless Megatron prisoner rather than killing him since "That would be the easy way out." In a perfect world, yes, this would be a more ideal way to depict Optimus in the films. But since the threats portrayed by the movies have come to be on the levels of Kryptonian invasion in Man of Steel, it is relatively impossible for Movie Optimus to simply disable and capture every onscreen Decepticon without killing them since the movies made the Cons so inhuman and monstrous that they're all too dangerous to be kept alive, and the Movie Autobots likewise lack the means to properly incarcerate all of them. So the movies have purposely written themselves into a corner that prevents Optimus and the Autobots from going with any less violent methods short of killing all their foes. And since many viewers were evidently turned off by seeing their childhood icons be portrayed like violent soldiers involved in these scenarios that more resemble real life combat rather than classic superhero combat, Movie Optimus is thus looked down upon as "less noble" and "less heroic" than several of his more superhero-esque pre-2007 fiction counterparts.

Whether this is actually true or not is and has been a subject of debate since the 2007 movie, and will likely continue to be for debates yet to come, as there is simply no right or wrong answer here since everybody views heroism, nobility, and ethical nature of each in different lights and often tend to find very few common grounds of agreement, as there are those who prefer the more realistic take that the movies went with while others prefer the more child friendly classic superhero take that had been in effect since 1984.


And after having said all that, there's now the elephant in the room that is the "realistic superhero stories" like the Nolan Batman trilogy, the aforementioned Man of Steel film, and other examples that the TF movies do resemble, which helps to make the whole above explanation bare less weight. But if one considers my occasional use of the phrase "classic superhero" to refer specifically to the more child friendly iterations over the more realistic ones, then that might let this argument prove more fruitful.

Sabrblade wrote:
Lots of people point to the season finale of Animated as an example of how Optimus should act in the movies, in which he chose to take a defenseless Megatron prisoner rather than killing him since "That would be the easy way out." In a perfect world, yes, this would be a more ideal way to depict Optimus in the films.

I Belive that Megatron in Animated was exequted shortly after series finale. Why? It is simple, For Autobots he is nothing more than a common thug. He is maybe powerfull and cunning, but he is'nt a real threat for Autobots. There is no army ready to follow him, and he can't be portrayed as a martyr. So there is no reason to spare him....

However, even if he wasn't exequted: Isn't he's final fate technically worse for him than death? He has been beaten by guy that is technically a civilan, and he couldn't even defeat a Space Repair Brigade. He was humiliated, and he will live long enough to be aware that anyone now about this...

Sabrblade wrote:The movies attempt to portray realistic warfare scenarios that

You called main protagonist killing anything (including things obvoiusly more powerfull than him) on sight just because he is main protagonist "realistic"? I quess Rambo is a historical documentary movie for you...

TurboMMaster wrote:I Belive that Megatron in Animated was exequted shortly after series finale.

Actually, he was sentenced to spend jail-time at Trypticon Prison. In BotCon's story "The Stunti-Con Job", the Stunticons, disguised as a travelling circus troupe, attempted to break Megatron out of Trypticon Prison.

TurboMMaster wrote:

Sabrblade wrote:The movies attempt to portray realistic warfare scenarios that

You called main protagonist killing anything (including things obvoiusly more powerfull than him) on sight just because he is main protagonist "realistic"? I quess Rambo is a historical documentary movie for you...

You must have missed the keyword in that sentence I wrote: "]The movies attempt to portray realistic warfare scenarios..."

They TRY to make it realistic. I never said they succeed, but nor did I say that they fail to, either. All I said was that they try for realism, which is true.

Though, you are wrong to call Optimus the "main protagonist" of these movies. Sam Witwicky is the mian protagonist of the first three, while Cade Yeager will be the main protagonist of the fourth. No Transformer in any of these films has been the protagonist. They've been the heroes and villains, but not the protagonist. There IS a difference between a "hero" and a "protagonist".

At best, you could probably call Bumblebee or Optimus the "deuteragonist" of one of the first three movies, but Sam held the protagonist role for all three.

Main Optimus Prime is main protagonist in battle scenes - while Human Characters are the one witch perspective is portrayed in the movie, and they are the ones that saved the day, most fight scenes are builded (poorly) around Prime. It very similiar to Yu-gi-oh, when anyone knows that tactic and deck of good guy sucks, but since he is a good guy, he can win anyway. In this term, Bayformers Optimus Prime is exactly the same.

Sabrblade wrote:They TRY to make it realistic. I never said they succeed, but nor did I say that they fail to, either. All I said was that they try for realism, which is true.

Then they failed so miserably, that it is even hard to notice... But realism never was a strong part of Franchise: remember that this is all about giant robot from other planet.

Dude, Sam is the protagonist, period, not Optimus. Focal presentation can change to observe other characters besides the protagonist without reassigning new roles to the characters per scene transition. Optimus is the hero, but by no means is he the protagonist in any of these films.

Even if I must agree, that outside battles Sam is the main protagonist (and during fight, since he saved Autobots from disaster two or three times). My argument remains valid. Optimus won so many fights only because he is "The Hero" And that makes him boring and uninteresting character.

TurboMMaster wrote:Even if I must agree, that outside battles Sam is the main protagonist (and during fight, since he saved Autobots from disaster two or three times). My argument remains valid. Optimus won so many fights only because he is "The Hero" And that makes him boring and uninteresting character.

Oh, I never denied that Optimus wasn't a well written character. On that I agree.

The way these films portray Optimus's personality is one rooted in enormous contradictions in the filmmakers' attempts to portray him like a soldier instead of a superhero.

One minute Optimus is giving an impassioned speech about freedom and righteousness with triumphant hopeful music playing the background, the next minute he's ruthlessly ripping out the sparks of his victims only to show said sparks into their faces just rub it in, right before he pulls their faces off.

It's because the filmmakers try to make Optimus fight like a 1980s Action Flick hero, like Schwarzenegger in Commando or Stallone in Rambo. Whereas Peter Cullen vocalizes him as the same kind of compassionate saint of superheroism that he was in the G1 cartoon. Thus, his fighting style behavior and his vocal behavior greatly clash with each other, creating a character who is ultimately a living paradox.