Full Preview of IDW Transformers vs Visionaries #2

Not that I think anyone's too fussed about it, but review of #2 will be up later on tonight.

Spoiler: it was awful but just in the regular boring-awful kind of way, not the insulting-awful way #1 was.

ScottyP wrote:Not that I think anyone's too fussed about it, but review of #2 will be up later on tonight.

Spoiler: it was awful but just in the regular boring-awful kind of way, not the insulting-awful way #1 was.

Well...I guess that's a "improvement" in a sort of it's still not good way.

ScottyP wrote:Not that I think anyone's too fussed about it, but review of #2 will be up later on tonight.

Spoiler: it was awful but just in the regular boring-awful kind of way, not the insulting-awful way #1 was.

Wait, y'all still got review copies even though the book didn't get released?

Daniel Adkins wrote:

ScottyP wrote:Not that I think anyone's too fussed about it, but review of #2 will be up later on tonight.

Spoiler: it was awful but just in the regular boring-awful kind of way, not the insulting-awful way #1 was.

Wait, y'all still got review copies even though the book didn't get released?

We're able to access them along with other press outlets the Friday before release. Every once in a while, this being one of those times, stuff gets delayed at the very very last minute. Even IDW's weekly newsletter lists this and SSF 2 as being out 1/31, so something really weird must have happened! Ah well, work's done so I can just hold off on posting it for six more days.

Two comics arrive from IDW Publishing this week that feature Transformers, in the form of Transformers vs. Visionaries #2, which is the topic of this review, and Scarlett's Strike Force #2. These reviews will both be pretty spoiler heavy, as this is meant to assist with comparisons and contrasts with the other book whose review is meant to be read before or after this as a companion piece. You can find that review, for the lastest chapter of Scarlett's Strike Force by clicking or tapping on over to this link.

I found myself quite enjoying one of this week's entries in the IDW Hasbro Universe, and really not enjoying the other at all. Which will Transformers vs. Visionaries #2 be? Read on to find out! Or if you read these in Part 1, Part 2 order, you already know!


This is one ridiculous, completely unbelievable, out of this world comic. There are magical aliens with a portion of their planet trapped on Cybertron, which is itself a planet of sentient, giant robots. There are light totems fighting other light totems, holograms, magicians, and even a villain character that somehow has that trendy but ugly Skrillex haircut where half of someone's head is buzzed down with like a #2 clipper but then the rest is really long and they comb it over and look, very very few people can pull that off without looking strung out so let's stop that. There are only 20 pages, so you're probably thinking there's no way that could all work together in a coherent, meaningful way. If so, you'd be right - like this opening paragraph, this comic just isn't very good.


Character moments are important. These need to exist in stories like this. Roll-call moments are a nice way to do this, and with a cast that isn't tremendously large there should be opportunity to present some establishing lines that give the Spectral Knights unity but also some individuality. Leoric aside, this opportunity isn't really taken. Sure, Witterquick is fast, but that's sort of implied by his name. Arzon says things, sure, but none of it feels like anything uniquely his to say. Galadria makes some wooden point/counter-point retorts. I don't feel like I know anything about these characters, while over in Scarlett's Strike Force #2 a similarly unfamiliar (to me) pair in Raptor and Croc Master were introduced who ooze so much personality that I can already tell you which one is an accountant with opinions on the evolutionary path of avian species.


That's really the crux of the problem with Transformers vs. Visionaries now that we're past the initial, questionable setup. Why are they here? I don't mean "why are they on Cybertron", as the story explains this, it's more of a question of why they're in this role at this time in this fictional universe. Borrowing now a bit from fellow comic reviewer/fellow site Administrator Va'al, Magdalene Visaggio, while not a bad writer, falls into the trap JJ Abrams did in Star Wars: The Force Awakens where the setting is just... the setting. New Prysmos is ultimately on Cybertron because someone in marketing and/or editorial said so, despite what the story tells you. That's not a good feeling to deliver to readers two books in to an attempt at re-launching a franchise which three people (not an exact figure) had any nostalgia for.


Things just happen for no reason. It's great that we get to see some spectral totem animal fights - a dolphin with a unicorn horn fighting a gorilla is freaking awesome, but why not give a reason for why they use this ability beyond the already implied "because that's what they do"? Maybe Cybertron has some latent energy allowing this lost art (if it even was) to be used again or something like that. You can tell the pitch here was for a Visionaries story, and instead of taking the Transformers element and having fun with the toy box, it feels shuffled off to the side in what is I daresay an antagonistic manner.

Virulina thinks this is all stupid, so she wants to kill all the Cybertronians. This does not make her charming or compelling, it makes her a shallow caricature.


There's another comic out this week that isn't about Transformers which contains a Transformers character, that character being Skywarp. If you read that review first, you'll know that Skywarp is handled really well and brings something beyond the basics that's fun to read.

Transformers vs. Visionaries #2 continues to primarily feature Ironhide and Wheeljack for its cast of Cybertronians. Ironhide is one of the most well developed characters in IDW's Transformers lore, yet he continues to take more steps backwards towards the irrational Sunbow cartoon gunslinger in this issue. Wheeljack, who is known for his wit, irritability, and blazingly-fast science work in IDW, is presented as an entirely incompetent lab rat that "needs more time". IDW Wheeljack doesn't need more time, he needs you to shut up so he can do science faster and save Cybertron again. Someone please buy Visaggio an IDW Transformers back catalog. Please.


The art is perhaps the one thing saving this from complete irrelevancy. Fico Ossio does an outstanding job throughout with the humanoid characters, with the panel above of Leoric guaranteed to wash away any desire you had left to see the 80s cartoon Burt Reynolds looking version of the character. There's still a little I'd like to see out of his robotic output, mainly in the faces, but it reeks more of unfamiliarity than a lack of ability. The spectral totems look great, the environments look great, and the layouts are a treat while still being easy to follow. For what little story there is, Ossio does everything I can imagine to enhance it. The pairing of his lines with colors from David Garcia Cruz continues to be a natural fit, with things popping where they should and blending smoothly where they shouldn't. Shawn Lee's letters complement the action and never get in the way of the visual storytelling work done by the book's layouts.

There are three covers available for the issue, including the "A" cover by the Ossio/Garcia Cruz team which is seen in this news story's thumbnail. As always, you can find images of all of the covers and full credits for the issue in our Vector Sigma Database page for Transformers vs Visionaries #2, but do note it contains a character appearance list that may yield more spoilers!


Va'al's review of the first issue didn't yield a very high score, but it's about double what I would have given that issue. This is a little better because I can at least imagine some modicum of future potential after reading it. The book is nice to look - the art really is well done - but make no mistake, this is a Visionaries comic with Transformers used as seasoning, and sparingly. It seems like the creative team is disappointed that they have to play with other properties. At least that's what comes through on the page, because this story and its lack thereof continues to be high-level disappointment.

This is the series that should be ending after three issues.

So this is my first time hearing about this series (I am out of the loop in IDWverse - clearly). So looking through this thread and the scans, well, things to say...

What have they done? These redesigns are absolutely horrendous. That's not Merklynn, it looks like his "edgy" punk nephew. Likewise Leoric didn't actually look like a damn lion
Why is Virulina, a sub-character at best, leader of the Darkling Lords? Where is Darkstorm, the only fleshed out and charismatic Darkling Lord?
Why does this book even exist?? If they wanted to revive Visionaries (for the 20 people out there who remember a cartoon that only lasted one season) just make a Visionaries mini-series. The editorial mandate of this crossover reeks of low level marketing. Trying to capitalize on the "Shared Universe" BS Marvel needed to sell C-List characters to a mainstream audience with the MCU.

The worst part was I actually liked Visionaries. The Original. The show, the toys (which I owed a fair few) etc This, like Bayformers, I will never endorse nor support in any way.

End Rant

You're not missing much This reeks of wasted potential and it makes me sad.

I think they had to scramble for an IP to replace Inhumanoids, which they were actually building to in GI Joe, Rom, and MASK post-Revolution, but we got this instead. There was close to 0 build to it despite what snarky wiki articles that have the benefit of hindsight will try to tell you. Way too early, needed a slow build instead of what they just dropped in on a dime.

ScottyP wrote:You're not missing much This reeks of wasted potential and it makes me sad.

I think they had to scramble for an IP to replace Inhumanoids, which they were actually building to in GI Joe, Rom, and MASK post-Revolution, but we got this instead. There was close to 0 build to it despite what snarky wiki articles that have the benefit of hindsight will try to tell you. Way too early, needed a slow build instead of what they just dropped in on a dime.

MASK is part of this as well??? Let me guess, T-Bob is Cybertronian now?

AllNewSuperRobot wrote:

ScottyP wrote:You're not missing much This reeks of wasted potential and it makes me sad.

I think they had to scramble for an IP to replace Inhumanoids, which they were actually building to in GI Joe, Rom, and MASK post-Revolution, but we got this instead. There was close to 0 build to it despite what snarky wiki articles that have the benefit of hindsight will try to tell you. Way too early, needed a slow build instead of what they just dropped in on a dime.

MASK is part of this as well??? Let me guess, T-Bob is Cybertronian now?

Nah, IDW MASK actually has a cool premise. Be warned it's nothing like the original, but the short version:

• Miles Mayhem, formerly of the Adventure Team (you know, with Joe Colton and Atomic Man and Stalker and Rocketman?), is some kind of military-industrial tycoon or something and wants to defend Earth from future attacks like Megatron's from All Hail Megatron.
• When the opportunity arises, the EDC and Chinese Army capture Blitzwing in a battle (Transformers 54 I think? Somewhere in All Hail Optimus)
• Mayhem tortures and dissects Blitzwing over time, studying the tech and using it to create the MASK vehicles
• He then has Dr. Mindbender identify a bunch of candidates for MASK, so you get the intro of Matt Trakker, Bruno Sheppard, Gloria Baker, and so on
• During Revolution they go fight as instructed, this leads to tensions between Trakker and Mayhem when Trakker realizes Cybertronians are more like people than machines, and eventually the MASK/VENOM split happens

Then things don't go well, the series has been canceled, and Matt Trakker is part of GI Joe now, still using the codename Spectrum. Miles Mayhem is in jail on Cybertron. None of the other characters were really all that interesting. It's too bad, it had potential! If you liked the old MASK, you might enjoy the Annual from last year, which is a retelling of the pilot episode "The Deathstone" using the current IDW Hasbroverse.

MASK, I actually didn't like prior. I like sci-fi, robots etc Earth Based vehicles, don't really do anything for me.

Honestly those highlights sound like almost as much of a complete suspension of disbelief as the Visionaries story above. A silly little human shouldn't be able to pose any threat whatsoever to a 50 foot alien robot. That's Bayformers BS

Do you remember when, throughout the -Ations, Simon Furman hammered home how Earth had no real significance to the Transformers at all. That it was just another battlefield, one of countless others? I do, those were good times...

AllNewSuperRobot wrote:Do you remember when, throughout the -Ations, Simon Furman hammered home how Earth had no real significance to the Transformers at all. That it was just another battlefield, one of countless others? I do, those were good times...

There are definitely characters still treating it that way, making for a good bit of tension in the current Optimus Prime series. OP wants to treat it as something special, while Camiens (such as Mistress of Flame, Victorion), Carcerians (such as Elita One, Obsidian, Strika) are more wary and will likely make some move against Prime at some point. Unless Onyx and Maximo and Unicron do first, but at any rate the seeds are there!

Doesn't sound like you're going to be into it either way, but if you liked Furman's stories you may want to look into recent Lost Light issues, which have picked up several plots that had been dropped for the AHM soft-reboot.

ScottyP wrote:

AllNewSuperRobot wrote:Do you remember when, throughout the -Ations, Simon Furman hammered home how Earth had no real significance to the Transformers at all. That it was just another battlefield, one of countless others? I do, those were good times...

There are definitely characters still treating it that way, making for a good bit of tension in the current Optimus Prime series. OP wants to treat it as something special, while Camiens (such as Mistress of Flame, Victorion), Carcerians (such as Elita One, Obsidian, Strika) are more wary and will likely make some move against Prime at some point. Unless Onyx and Maximo and Unicron do first, but at any rate the seeds are there!

Doesn't sound like you're going to be into it either way, but if you liked Furman's stories you may want to look into recent Lost Light issues, which have picked up several plots that had been dropped for the AHM soft-reboot.

So, I tapped out of IDWverse with Death of Optimus Prime. So none of that made sense to me

Although I did see Unicron So they've finally done it, they brought him into IDW? No more palming off D-Void as the Real Thing. Can we forget about the entire Dead Universe/Heart of Darkness stuff now? Assuming Galvatron did resurface following CHAOS? Alongside Scourge and Cyclonus??

Galvatron came back and was leader of the cons for a while after the dark cybertron event.

AllNewSuperRobot wrote:
Although I did see Unicron So they've finally done it, they brought him into IDW? No more palming off D-Void as the Real Thing. Can we forget about the entire Dead Universe/Heart of Darkness stuff now? Assuming Galvatron did resurface following CHAOS? Alongside Scourge and Cyclonus??

You mentioned suspension of disbelief before, and I feel like I need to find a gif of Max Landis right before he explains WWE's The Undertaker Anyhow, prepare that suspension of disbelief because out of context like this, it's about to take a beating: Scourge is real dead, as in "Whirl played around with his and/or The Sweeps' corpses" dead, but might also kind of be Slag now, kinda, but it's fuzzy and unlikely. Galvatron is Arcee's brother, a legendary conqueror, and also dead, having been decapitated above Jupiter by Optimus Prime. Cyclonus is traveling in space with Hot Rod, Ultra Magnus, and many others, and is currently in mourning over the death of his boyfriend, Tailgate.

ScottyP wrote:You mentioned suspension of disbelief before, and I feel like I need to find a gif of Max Landis right before he explains WWE's The Undertaker Anyhow, prepare that suspension of disbelief because out of context like this, it's about to take a beating: Scourge is real dead, as in "Whirl played around with his and/or The Sweeps' corpses" dead, but might also kind of be Slag now, kinda, but it's fuzzy and unlikely. Galvatron is Arcee's brother, a legendary conqueror, and also dead, having been decapitated above Jupiter by Optimus Prime. Cyclonus is traveling in space with Hot Rod, Ultra Magnus, and many others, and is currently in mourning over the death of his boyfriend, Tailgate.

Right, so not too long ago I heard about a TF book, that was along the same lines as DC & Marvel's Elseworlds/What If? imprint. Alternate reality tales. Now this has been done before (Hearts of Steel, I think it was called?)but this book in particular caught my attention. It focused on The Movie, my G1 anchor. So I read it.. and it came across as the most trite and bitter fan-fiction from a malcontent Fanboy. Still butthurt that their favourites died in The Movie. Everyone from the Movie cast was more or less purged in favour of the old has-beens. I actually threw the book away.

I bring this up, as this is the same gist I'm getting from what you're telling me here.

Galvatron, who even from previous IDW continuity, was established as being one of the most powerful Transformers, even without his Dead Universe powerset IE beyond Prime. DEAD

Scourge. Who ultimately did nothing but be a visual cameo. The Sweeps did more than he did. DEAD - worse still, off-panel.

Cyclonus. Not a Decepticon, alongside nonsensical "divide" from Galvatron in CHAOS, just because he was wanted solo in another book.

So the most iconic Trinity in TF no longer exists in IDWverse.

No Rodimus Prime. Although Hot Rod possessed the Matrix and it was even mentioned bonded with it in a greater way than Prime ever did.

Kup. Keeps dying.

Arcee. An interesting allegory for Transgender (before it was a buzzword). Now with no real ties to Hot Rod, Blurr or Springer. Now with added nonsense about being Galvatron's brother? "siblings" in Transformers share molds. Without insight into what Arcee looked like before Jhiaxus, it's an entirely pointless fact.

Springer. Awol since Last Stand of The Wreckers. Again with no ties to Hot Rod, Blurr and/or Arcee. Solid ties to Kup though.

Wheelie. Who cares

Blurr. No ties to any of the Movie cast.

You see my point. Meanwhile Prime and all of the other Fodder from The Movie continues to live and thrive in IDWverse...

Ahh you're talking about the what if issue where hot rod didn't jump in the way. Has anyone told you yet that megs is an autobot now and that Prowl was part of devestator?

To steal from the G2 comic a little,"IDW is not your father's G1" so don't treat as such and you'll be fine. It's better anyway then the old G1 in my opinion...though that gets tested when the editorial team do crossovers for the sake of launching a different franchise completely

Deadput wrote:Man, I really do not like the Darkling guys, especially the chick she's just so smug and obnoxious, but not just her lines and character, the stupid poses she makes on covers and such just make me want to pop in the Hasbro verse and just punch her in her stupid mug...

But seriously screw Virulina and Wizard guy too.

Normally I can sympathise with the bad guys... Not here, and for the same reason. I just want to beat her smug expression off her ugly face. I dislike her personality, her smugness, her drawings, her - in general existence. Obnoxious is putting it gently.


As for this second book I am not impressed at all. I mean where are the transformers in this book? we get a couple (4) pages of them, a tiny smattering compared to the others. "Fleshy little Starscreams" I'm sorry but Starscream is nothing like them - Starscream actually did care for things.

ZeroWolf wrote:Ahh you're talking about the what if issue where hot rod didn't jump in the way. Has anyone told you yet that megs is an autobot now and that Prowl was part of devestator?

To steal from the G2 comic a little,"IDW is not your father's G1" so don't treat as such and you'll be fine. It's better anyway then the old G1 in my opinion...though that gets tested when the editorial team do crossovers for the sake of launching a different franchise completely

See that doesn't bother me. When I really took interest in Transformers, Prowl was the bot with smoke coming out of his eyes on the Autobot Shuttle and Megatron was replaced by a far superior character.
The way I see it, The Movie moved the plot forward. IDWverse has, for the most part, sidelined the "Future" characters, while holding the rest of the series back with Prime, Thundercracker, Starscream etc as the lead characters.
In my view the most interesting thing Thundercracker ever did was become Scourge.

I see your view now, I disagree with it but I understand better. As I said treat this as different from what you know, like beast wars etc. As for the focus? Well G1 nostalgia (remember season 3 and the rebirth are not remembered fondly for different reasons) is key, but overtime IDW has shown a willingness to change hence we have brand new characters taking centre stage like windblade, brand new takes on character's like starscream which evolve well beyond what G1 would of let them. You mention Thundercracker, well he's come a long way, playing a key role in several arcs.

For what it's worth though I would recommend More than meets the eye/lost light as hot rod takes center stage along with a host of other not well known characters and several new ones. It's also the series that most focused on autobot megatron, really delving into his mind set .

So after raging like a fanboy over the first issue, I wasn't looking forward to reading the second issue.

How much more could they fuck up and make Transformers the back-up characters?

Well, they tried, they gave it a good go. A good portion of the book revolves around the Visionaries. In what came as absolutely no surprise whatsoever, they've already splintered. Good side who wants peace with the Cybertronians, and bad side who just want to wipe said giant robots from the planet.

I'm sure you can guess how the issue ends. Yeah ... the good Visionaries are now best buds with the Cybertronians and they're going to lead a joint effort to stop the naughty Visionaries! Honestly, when you strip it down, it's such a generic story line, and the characters aren't much better.

But hey, at least we got to see some Visionary on Visionary action, and no you pervs, not like that, I mean they fought and used their magical hologram thingies.

So yeah, not as fanboy rage inducing as the first issue. In fact, if you have trouble sleeping at night, this is the sort of thing that will help put you to sleep. It was generic, it's been done before, multiple times, it was just ... meh.

-edit-
I typed this after BEFORE reading ScottyP's review (I don't like to have things spoilt for me) and ... wow. We agree on a fair few points it seems. What does that say when people are agreeing with me?

I think there's a proverb that goes like this:
"Agree with burn? Invest in a fallout shelter"

ZeroWolf wrote:I see your view now, I disagree with it but I understand better. As I said treat this as different from what you know, like beast wars etc. As for the focus? Well G1 nostalgia (remember season 3 and the rebirth are not remembered fondly for different reasons) is key, but overtime IDW has shown a willingness to change hence we have brand new characters taking centre stage like windblade, brand new takes on character's like starscream which evolve well beyond what G1 would of let them. You mention Thundercracker, well he's come a long way, playing a key role in several arcs.

For what it's worth though I would recommend More than meets the eye/lost light as hot rod takes center stage along with a host of other not well known characters and several new ones. It's also the series that most focused on autobot megatron, really delving into his mind set .

See the thing about G1, when you go back and re-watch it. Season one and two aren't great. Just the pilot alone, with Megatron cackling "excellent" over and over again like a mechanical Mr. Burns, is quite cringe inducing now. See at least in The Movie, Megatron is genuinely intimidating.

As I've said elsewhere, I never really paid all that much attention to the Pre-Movie seasons and so actually watched them properly when they were re-released on DVD about 15 years ago. For all the rose tinted nostalgia, Season 1 & 2 are aimless. Aside from the occasional cliffhanger there is no overall progressing narrative. The serialised nature of Season 3 however, is a noticeable improvement instantly. The Five Faces of Darkness was more engaging a story than any plot from before The Movie. True, Season 3 did also have the single worst episode of G1 ever ( B.O.T.) but no TF series has ever had all winning episodes IE BW 'The Low Road'. At the end of the day the people who didn't like Season 3 & 4 because "_____" wasn't in it, having died in the Movie, that comes down to fans unwilling to accept change,as opposed to any fault of the Seasons themselves.

The characters of Season 3 & 4 looked more like they are supposed to also. Futuristic alien robots, which is the entire point of Transformers. Countless writers and creators seem oblivious to the fact that the Cybertronians aren't just 'people in robot suits' they are a sentient alien race.
So they get dumbed down and humanised instead. A mark I actually hold against MTMTE and Lost Light, from what little I read in Phase Two. Vol.1 of the HC Collection. If you can't write about alien robots as alien robots, write a book about people instead.

Simon Furman gets these characters. The -Ations in particular parallels the alien nature of the Transformers with relateability, without retreading the characterisation of his previous G1 series.
Giving them understandable personalities without forcing human feelings and behaviors upon them. That's what the human supporting cast is for after all, not the Bots themselves.
His Hot Rod Spotlight perfectly encapsulated everything about his character, both as Hot Rod and the doubts that drove him as Rodimus Prime.
A good writer adapts their style to a pre-established series, they don't change a series to suit them. That is how you end up with the Costa run...

End of off topic Rant.

Burn wrote:I typed this after BEFORE reading ScottyP's review (I don't like to have things spoilt for me) and ... wow. We agree on a fair few points it seems. What does that say when people are agreeing with me?

Greatness recognizes greatness, and like crappy comics, we are all shadowed by it. I think that's the 100% accurate version of that quote maybe.

AllNewSuperRobot wrote:

ZeroWolf wrote:I see your view now, I disagree with it but I understand better. As I said treat this as different from what you know, like beast wars etc. As for the focus? Well G1 nostalgia (remember season 3 and the rebirth are not remembered fondly for different reasons) is key, but overtime IDW has shown a willingness to change hence we have brand new characters taking centre stage like windblade, brand new takes on character's like starscream which evolve well beyond what G1 would of let them. You mention Thundercracker, well he's come a long way, playing a key role in several arcs.

For what it's worth though I would recommend More than meets the eye/lost light as hot rod takes center stage along with a host of other not well known characters and several new ones. It's also the series that most focused on autobot megatron, really delving into his mind set .

See the thing about G1, when you go back and re-watch it. Season one and two aren't great. Just the pilot alone, with Megatron cackling "excellent" over and over again like a mechanical Mr. Burns, is quite cringe inducing now. See at least in The Movie, Megatron is genuinely intimidating.

As I've said elsewhere, I never really paid all that much attention to the Pre-Movie seasons and so actually watched them properly when they were re-released on DVD about 15 years ago. For all the rose tinted nostalgia, Season 1 & 2 are aimless. Aside from the occasional cliffhanger there is no overall progressing narrative. The serialised nature of Season 3 however, is a noticeable improvement instantly. The Five Faces of Darkness was more engaging a story than any plot from before The Movie. True, Season 3 did also have the single worst episode of G1 ever ( B.O.T.) but no TF series has ever had all winning episodes IE BW 'The Low Road'. At the end of the day the people who didn't like Season 3 & 4 because "_____" wasn't in it, having died in the Movie, that comes down to fans unwilling to accept change,as opposed to any fault of the Seasons themselves.

The characters of Season 3 & 4 looked more like they are supposed to also. Futuristic alien robots, which is the entire point of Transformers. Countless writers and creators seem oblivious to the fact that the Cybertronians aren't just 'people in robot suits' they are a sentient alien race.
So they get dumbed down and humanised instead. A mark I actually hold against MTMTE and Lost Light, from what little I read in Phase Two. Vol.1 of the HC Collection. If you can't write about alien robots as alien robots, write a book about people instead.

Simon Furman gets these characters. The -Ations in particular parallels the alien nature of the Transformers with relateability, without retreading the characterisation of his previous G1 series.
Giving them understandable personalities without forcing human feelings and behaviors upon them. That's what the human supporting cast is for after all, not the Bots themselves.
His Hot Rod Spotlight perfectly encapsulated everything about his character, both as Hot Rod and the doubts that drove him as Rodimus Prime.
A good writer adapts their style to a pre-established series, they don't change a series to suit them. That is how you end up with the Costa run...

End of off topic Rant.

Actually season 3 had another contender for worse episode ever, carnage in c-minor.

Your point seems to boil down to that once something is set, that's the way it must stay. Also arguing about how fictional giant robots would behave (how do you know they wouldn't have interpersonal relationships and be capable of emotions?) Is probably a good sign that the debate has gone on long enough

Personally I love this humanised take as you put it, it makes the characters feel developed, Furman was no stranger and he employed it frequently after all, and I'm sure he would be happy with the stuff that's been added to the IDW mythology (okay, not all of it, he'll have turned his nose up at tf v visionaries)

On topic, I feel like there's an injustice here that scarlet strike force is cancelled, till all are one was cancelled yet we get this in return?

ZeroWolf wrote:On topic, I feel like there's an injustice here that scarlet strike force is cancelled, till all are one was cancelled yet we get this in return?

Publicly available comic sales data is terrible. That said, for what is around, SSF 1 did less than 4,000 copies in numbers sold by Diamond in the US to comic shops. That's real low for a #1. Really, really low, even for IDW. I think that stinks but there's at least some truth to the numbers doing it in, with the rest filled in to some degree by controversy/marketing/whatnot. Just for comparison: OP and Lost Light, despite being (effectively) at issues 72/71 with all the attrition that comes along with it, are at around 6,000 copies (give or take a bit) each month.

TAAO is a weird case but I'd guess now that Scott stepped away once she saw the editorial concept for TF vs Visionaries, which led to that separate launch rather than it being an attempted jumpstart for TAAO's sales. This is speculation of the highest order, just to be clear!

ZeroWolf wrote:Your point seems to boil down to that once something is set, that's the way it must stay. Also arguing about how fictional giant robots would behave (how do you know they wouldn't have interpersonal relationships and be capable of emotions?) Is probably a good sign that the debate has gone on long enough

My point is, in an established series, you build on the foundations already laid out before you. For example, from his Spotlight debut, develop IDW "Judge Dredd in Space" Ultra Magnus, not try to pass him off as the same character as MTMTE's Version. It doesn't mesh.
Again, a good writer can still put their own spin on pre-existing canon without walking over it EG Joss Whedon's Astonishing X-Men. A series with far more years of established canon than Transformers. Change from within.

I'm also not arguing about how fictional giant Alien robots behave, their relationships or their potential feelings etc I'm just saying they wouldn't be human ones EG Galvatron randomly referencing the Mary Celeste, because that makes no sense. It's like accepting the Japanese dub of Beast Wars Season one over the Western original, as canon after the fact.

ZeroWolf wrote:Personally I love this humanised take as you put it, it makes the characters feel developed, Furman was no stranger and he employed it frequently after all, and I'm sure he would be happy with the stuff that's been added to the IDW mythology (okay, not all of it, he'll have turned his nose up at tf v visionaries)

Well, IDWverse started with Megatron: Origin. The story of a simple miner leading an oppressed underclass in revolt. Since then, how many retcons are we upto? Because apparently Megatron having humble and insignificant origins like that wasn't enough for some, so we get some rubbish about him being a poet, protester and intellectual. Why? It only serves to convolute the canon of IDWverse. Much like the Primacy Trilogy
Adding completely unnecessary narrative exposition, which I doubt Editorial or Hasbro mandated it's existence. If you're going to retcon significant storybeats, justify it to a greater degree than merely to serve a single current plot point.

ZeroWolf wrote:On topic, I feel like there's an injustice here that scarlet strike force is cancelled, till all are one was cancelled yet we get this in return?

I have a question on this too. Instead of Hasbro forcing all of these 80's human series in with the Transformers (excluding GI Joe, as that history existed for decades) why have they not pushed the Go-Bots into the mix? They still own them, don't they?

ZeroWolf wrote:I think there's a proverb that goes like this:
"Agree with burn? Invest in a fallout shelter"

I thought it was if you play with fire you get Burn.

ScottyP wrote:

ZeroWolf wrote:On topic, I feel like there's an injustice here that scarlet strike force is cancelled, till all are one was cancelled yet we get this in return?

Publicly available comic sales data is terrible. That said, for what is around, SSF 1 did less than 4,000 copies in numbers sold by Diamond in the US to comic shops. That's real low for a #1. Really, really low, even for IDW. I think that stinks but there's at least some truth to the numbers doing it in, with the rest filled in to some degree by controversy/marketing/whatnot. Just for comparison: OP and Lost Light, despite being (effectively) at issues 72/71 with all the attrition that comes along with it, are at around 6,000 copies (give or take a bit) each month.

TAAO is a weird case but I'd guess now that Scott stepped away once she saw the editorial concept for TF vs Visionaries, which led to that separate launch rather than it being an attempted jumpstart for TAAO's sales. This is speculation of the highest order, just to be clear!

That makes sense I guess but still sucks

Megatron origins has been diluted but we've had a decade of tf stories so it makes sense that things would be added in, it's just the same as Marvel or DC. As for Magnus, with what Roberts has done with his backstory, there's no problem with different takes as we don't know at what point Minimus Ambus took over the suit.

It sounds like you would rather it be like the old dreamwave series which hewed very close to G1 toon, which I didn't care for.

The sales for SSFF speak for themselves and the GIJoe series before it (Sitterson-era).

The combined universe has not been very good for GIJoe.

4000 - 6000 comics order for Billion dollar franchises is terrible. In terms of actual comic shop sales i'd say it's probably less than half of the diamond orders. my limited evidence is seeing the unsold copies in three local comic shops (note: i recognise this evidence isn't quantifiable)

AllNewSuperRobot wrote:True, Season 3 did also have the single worst episode of G1 ever ( B.O.T.) but no TF series has ever had all winning episodes IE BW 'The Low Road'.

B.O.T. is a late season 2 Episode.

Coptur wrote:The sales for SSFF speak for themselves and the GIJoe series before it (Sitterson-era).

The combined universe has not been very good for GIJoe.

4000 - 6000 comics order for Billion dollar franchises is terrible. In terms of actual comic shop sales i'd say it's probably less than half of the diamond orders. my limited evidence is seeing the unsold copies in three local comic shops (note: i recognise this evidence isn't quantifiable)

Ten years ago, I didn't think piracy was a big problem. It is now, at least for comics. A quick google search will give you basically any comic you want to read shortly after it comes out (sometimes just hours after!) and you don't have to pay for it. That's patently insane and no other entertainment industry would stand for it.

There are a lot of crap thinkpieces on what's wrong with comics sales in general, but the answer is right in front of everyone, one search away.

I do admit, I tend to read those until I can get my hands on a paper copy.

With that said, I recently bought a humble bundle of digital copies a while back, which allowed me to get caught up on most books to where I was able to go out and buy again. (I would like paper copies of those books because I enjoy relaxing in my Seeker Sanctuary and reading them surrounded by all my glorious Starscreams. And yes the Seeker Sanctuary is a physical place now <3

As for the visionaries - the copies I have are in the pull file - I am still trying to decide if I want to buy them or not (hard to decide with my intense dislike of the series thus far) I kinda feel compelled since I do read them online.

Sunstar wrote:I do admit, I tend to read those until I can get my hands on a paper copy.

With that said, I recently bought a humble bundle of digital copies a while back, which allowed me to get caught up on most books to where I was able to go out and buy again. (I would like paper copies of those books because I enjoy relaxing in my Seeker Sanctuary and reading them surrounded by all my glorious Starscreams. And yes the Seeker Sanctuary is a physical place now <3

As for the visionaries - the copies I have are in the pull file - I am still trying to decide if I want to buy them or not (hard to decide with my intense dislike of the series thus far) I kinda feel compelled since I do read them online.

if you're not enjoying the story don't buy them.

save your cash for more seekers

ZeroWolf wrote:Megatron origins has been diluted but we've had a decade of tf stories so it makes sense that things would be added in, it's just the same as Marvel or DC. As for Magnus, with what Roberts has done with his backstory, there's no problem with different takes as we don't know at what point Minimus Ambus took over the suit.

It sounds like you would rather it be like the old dreamwave series which hewed very close to G1 toon, which I didn't care for.

(I think this reply was to me )

Marvel and DC retcon and change things because they are forever trying to streamline and modernise 50+ years of convoluted backstory.

Megatron: Origin, The Backstory of IDWverse, came out in 2007. Infiltration, the first IDWverse story came out in 2006. The series isn't old enough to need any retcons or alterations to it's default beginnings. If anything, all the retcons actually did was convolute the entire series, which wasn't the case before.
When it comes to Magnus, what they should have is expand on the Enforcers of the Tyrest Accord using the palette swaps. Have the MTMTE version be Delta Magnus and have Ultra Magnus as a separate character. That way there is no conflicting characterisation. Also as Delta, it would have been easier to sell the character as using some weird variant of Pretender Shell.

What I would rather is IDWverse to expand on the original ideas it began with. I never read Dreamwave (although I am current collecting a TF part-work that is chronicling all TF comics)
however, I did read Transformers IDW Collection book one and was instantly hooked on such a fresh beginning for Transformers overall. Because ultimately what I take from descriptions of the cast now, is what they have done by adding New, BW and Takara characters around the base G1 cast will lead to such stagnation that there will be no alternative but to reboot the series. The Takara series and Beast Wars represent future generations of G1, something IDWverse no longer has.

Well there's always how Unicron will impact things but I think you're wrong about IDW not having a future.

To start with let's agree that IDW did start on the right foot with the new implementation of the franchise. We got new takes on familiar characters and depth was added to ones who never really got much of a starring role. I mean one of the first major antagonists was a new character more or less. Megatron origins provided a glimpse of megs the early years but left things open still to be explored further (say what you will about the cracy series but they helped show that the system was broken back then) then came all hail megatron which I felt was a step back, even going back to the 80s designs when it made no sense. Still I think it was important that it happened as it provided hooks to greater things later on (it never pays to be too tidy when you're telling stories, leave some hooks there for later use) then we got the first ongoing which was hit or miss in places. Then of course came the chaos event which was were the biggest change came to the status quo that I loved...the war ended, the decepticons lost but the autobots...also lost? Yes, things werenth rosy for them as the Cybertronians who had fled the war returned and decided they wanted rid of both factions. Enter starscream who got the biggest shot in the arm he's ever had, as he got elected leader and got rid of the badges. While this sets up the Dark Cybertron event it also represents a point where new ground was being broken. The G1 toon had ended the war in the Movie but the Seasons that followed didn't do anything with it as the cons were still the antagonists and the cons were actually the outnumbered force as the Bots clearly outnumbered them (after all, bad guy toys never sold as well as good guys). I digress but the IDW peace meant it could offer new takes on where the agression would come from, if it was because prime took it upon himself to annex earth or starscream and windblade trying to get other colony world's on board with the council of worlds. Even storylines like soundwave trying to build a safe haven for cons so they could live to their own ideals. We were even able to get a comedy road trip series (MTMTE/lost light) which gave us new reasons to fear overlord, a new take on star saber which shown what zealotry was like (which was hard for me at first as I love victory but I know they are separate), we were given renditions of chromedome and rewind which part of the fandom took to heart and it allowed one dimensional characters like cyclonus to live again and develop.

Now you may ask what the point of this is, so let me ask you, if you had started reading the IDW series when all hail megatron ended and someone asked you what you thought was going to happen in the series, how much of what happened would you really have guessed? I wouldn't of saw nearly any of these developments (save Unicron but it was just when IDW were going to play that card). So you say IDW doesn't have a future, well I say we just can't see what it is yet *

*unless things really get messed up by the end of the visionaries series then please someone reboot it so the joes are the first ones to meet them on earth through a magic portal...

"...the panel above of Leoric guaranteed to wash away any desire you had left to see the 80s cartoon Burt Reynolds looking version of the character..."

Nope.

I think it's completely possibly to bring back a design that homages they original look, without it looking cheesy.

primalxconvoy wrote:

"...the panel above of Leoric guaranteed to wash away any desire you had left to see the 80s cartoon Burt Reynolds looking version of the character..."

Nope.

I think it's completely possibly to bring back a design that homages they original look, without it looking cheesy.

That’s certainly a tall order, personally his redesign is one of the best things about this comic...it might be the only good thing about it actually.

Leoric's redesign would be good, if it were Lion-O Their Original aesthetic was clearly depicting armoured medieval knights with magic infused chest plates and staffs. The redesigns completely fail in that aspect alone.

ZeroWolf wrote:Well there's always how Unicron will impact things but I think you're wrong about IDW not having a future.

To start with let's agree that IDW did start on the right foot with the new implementation of the franchise. We got new takes on familiar characters and depth was added to ones who never really got much of a starring role. I mean one of the first major antagonists was a new character more or less. Megatron origins provided a glimpse of megs the early years but left things open still to be explored further (say what you will about the cracy series but they helped show that the system was broken back then) then came all hail megatron which I felt was a step back, even going back to the 80s designs when it made no sense. Still I think it was important that it happened as it provided hooks to greater things later on (it never pays to be too tidy when you're telling stories, leave some hooks there for later use) then we got the first ongoing which was hit or miss in places. Then of course came the chaos event which was were the biggest change came to the status quo that I loved...the war ended, the decepticons lost but the autobots...also lost? Yes, things werenth rosy for them as the Cybertronians who had fled the war returned and decided they wanted rid of both factions. Enter starscream who got the biggest shot in the arm he's ever had, as he got elected leader and got rid of the badges. While this sets up the Dark Cybertron event it also represents a point where new ground was being broken. The G1 toon had ended the war in the Movie but the Seasons that followed didn't do anything with it as the cons were still the antagonists and the cons were actually the outnumbered force as the Bots clearly outnumbered them (after all, bad guy toys never sold as well as good guys). I digress but the IDW peace meant it could offer new takes on where the agression would come from, if it was because prime took it upon himself to annex earth or starscream and windblade trying to get other colony world's on board with the council of worlds. Even storylines like soundwave trying to build a safe haven for cons so they could live to their own ideals. We were even able to get a comedy road trip series (MTMTE/lost light) which gave us new reasons to fear overlord, a new take on star saber which shown what zealotry was like (which was hard for me at first as I love victory but I know they are separate), we were given renditions of chromedome and rewind which part of the fandom took to heart and it allowed one dimensional characters like cyclonus to live again and develop.

Now you may ask what the point of this is, so let me ask you, if you had started reading the IDW series when all hail megatron ended and someone asked you what you thought was going to happen in the series, how much of what happened would you really have guessed? I wouldn't of saw nearly any of these developments (save Unicron but it was just when IDW were going to play that card). So you say IDW doesn't have a future, well I say we just can't see what it is yet *

*unless things really get messed up by the end of the visionaries series then please someone reboot it so the joes are the first ones to meet them on earth through a magic portal...

The bits I didn't know about gave me a lot to digest there, but first: I didn't say IDWverse doesn't have a future, they have no future generations. They are mashing all the characters together in the present. The Takara series took place in the future of G1, Beast Wars took place in their distant future. It's all well and good giving a boon to fans, "Oh look, here's your favourite" But who will actually be left in reserve? Who is there they could show as Future Transformers? G2? Unicron Trilogy? BW2 & Neo characters?

While I mull over the rest, a point of contention. Maybe it was true of the G1 comics, but Cyclonus was never one dimensional in Sunbow. His personality serving as the prototype to BW Dinobot. In fact, none of The Trinity were one dimensional in Sunbow. Shockwave or Megatron could be considered one dimensional in Sunbow, but certainly not Cyclonus.

I think you're being generous there in regards to G1 characterisations especially putting cyclonus on the same shelf as Dinobot, who's final episode is one of my favourites of beast wars. As for generatons, does it really matter when there's still some corners of G1 and the Unicron trilogy to mine? Not to mention all the new ones that we'll see created and hopefully immortalised in toy form like nautica and chromia. I guess when it comes down to it I'm very optimistic about the future of IDW tfs...as long as tf v visionaries isn't a sign of things to come where every other hasbro based series has to launch from transformers...

Cyclonus demonstrated the same dubious sense of "honour" that would later become a defining trait of Dinobot's character. No one in Sunbow was ever that deep, yet there was some nuance.

Code of Hero is the not only one of the best TF stories ever, but absolutely the greatest death in the entire series. I do think Dinobot 2 was a mistake, maybe if they'd called him "Grimlock" instead?

Although, when I think about it, one particular set of characters hasn't been touched on at all in IDWverse - The alternate Primes and Megatrons. For example, Gigatron, the Ten-Former or Optimus Primal. Variants that had enough distinguishing personality to exist as separate characters among G1 Prime and Megatron. As for these new characters, I can't help but notice the lack of New Decepticons. Although arguably Tyrest and Star Saber do veer towards that line..

I didn't mind Dinobot 2 as I could understand why megs made him, though he should of anticipated the end result.

Gigatron has already appeared in the drift miniseries empire of stone written by the guy who did all hail megatron.

This coming isn't good unless Blurr gets Witterquick's staff, uses it on Velocitron, whilst at top speed, and then breaks the world...

- https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Ybb7_N6xpec

I never understood why each Visionary figure never came with a clear hard/rubbery plastic animal. In fact, they could have sold larger totem/summoned monsters, too.




And why the heck wasn't there a Final Fantasy style RPG ever made? Not even a ROM-hack?

They existed at a time when things like that just weren't common. Had visionaries came out a few years later they would have likely seen a mega drive/snes game as a cross promotion. After their doomed release no one card enough and even now I just can't see a point, you may as well go play some good rpg games instead.

True. However, I wonder why they didn't release the animals or summoned totems?

Might have been poor sales, I've never looked that deeply into the visionaries so for all I know there might have been plans if fate was kinder to them

I would have thought just a smaller, non-poseable, transparent coloured animal would have been a good idea. The Real Ghostbusters figures came with similar "ghosts", didn't they?

They were just little knights with holograms. The holograms were the selling point, not what the hologram represented. It's a weird marketing angle to consider now, but it wasn't a toyline that was supposed to be that deep and involved to begin with. The vehicles were cool though.

The hologram thing was big at the time though but realistically, they were fancy stickers...the gimmick was fancy stickers.

ZeroWolf wrote:The hologram thing was big at the time though but realistically, they were fancy stickers...the gimmick was fancy stickers.

Yep. The toyline was very basic and generic without the stickers. Only slight variations with the figures: colour, armour decal design, head sculpt etc Otherwise they were all standardised and interchangeable. I'm probably even remembering the vehicles being better than they actually were.

ZeroWolf wrote:

primalxconvoy wrote:

"...the panel above of Leoric guaranteed to wash away any desire you had left to see the 80s cartoon Burt Reynolds looking version of the character..."

Nope.

I think it's completely possibly to bring back a design that homages they original look, without it looking cheesy.

That’s certainly a tall order, personally his redesign is one of the best things about this comic...it might be the only good thing about it actually.

ZeroWolf gets to the point of what I was trying to say here I think Leoric's new look is fantastic! He's got this fierceness to him that gives him battle credibility - which the story promptly destroys, unfortunately. Regardless, he looks like he just stepped out of a franchise like Dragonball or Street Fighter, then donned some Spectral Knight gear, and is now ready to seriously kick butt.